Monday Truth or truth Open Comments

A couple days ago we had a brief discussion of Truth. Since then, I stumbled across a post about that very subject.
Unsurprisingly, not all truth is equal. All might be equally true at some point in time, but some truth is more True than others. A leading authority on Truth wrote an extensive document on that very topic not too long ago. In Unitatis Redintegratio (in English; you can find the original Latin near the link, if you just have to catch all the nuance), the Second Vatican Council says:

Moreover, in ecumenical dialogue, Catholic theologians standing fast by the teaching of the Church and investigating the divine mysteries with the separated brethren must proceed with love for the truth, with charity, and with humility. When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a “hierarchy” of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith. Thus the way will be opened by which through fraternal rivalry all will be stirred to a deeper understanding and a clearer presentation of the unfathomable riches of Christ.

This strongly implies that some truths are closer to the Truth than are others. More recently, Pope JP2 clarified this in the Profession of Faith, wherein he referenced yet another document written by another famous guy, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, aka B16.
B16 shows why he was the natural choice to be Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Ratzinger explains that there are three distinct levels of Magisterial teaching, signified by each of the three paragraphs: (1) those truths which are divinely revealed, (2) those which are definitively proposed, and (3) those which belong to the authentic ordinary Magisterium.

To the first category belong:

To the truths of the first paragraph belong the articles of faith of the Creed, the various Christological dogmas and Marian dogmas; the doctrine of the institution of the sacraments by Christ and their efficacy with regard to grace; the doctrine of the real and substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the sacrificial nature of the eucharistic celebration; the foundation of the Church by the will of Christ; the doctrine on the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff; the doctrine on the existence of original sin; the doctrine on the immortality of the spiritual soul and on the immediate recompense after death; the absence of error in the inspired sacred texts; the doctrine on the grave immorality of direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being.

Most of the above are relatively uncontroversial, except for the last point. There are few Catholics who question even slightly the above, except for that pesky last point. Those people are not Catholic; at best they are Protestant – at worst they are heretics. Put another way, a person cannot dispute any of the above points, in any fashion or degree whatsoever, and consider him/herself to be Catholic. These are each and together “all or nothing” propositions.
The second category are not much more flexible:

A similar process can be observed in the more recent teaching regarding the doctrine that priestly ordination is reserved only to men. The Supreme Pontiff, while not wishing to proceed to a dogmatic definition, intended to reaffirm that this doctrine is to be held definitively, since, founded on the written Word of God, constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. As the prior example illustrates, this does not foreclose the possibility that, in the future, the consciousness of the Church might progress to the point where this teaching could be defined as a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed.

Basically, these are those things that we know are true and are necessarily true, but have not yet been Divinely revealed. These may ultimately become truths of the first category – just not yet.
Finally, we have the “Ordinary Magisterium” or the teaching authority of the Church based upon the Grace the Holy Spirit gave her and continues to give her through the ages.
After all of the above follow what I call “natural truths” or what we experience in daily life. Examples are things like the sun rising in the East or days follow nights.
Put another way: Truths are immutable and will never change; truths are true – given similar surrounding conditions – but might change dramatically if those surrounding conditions change.


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  1. Super Dave Avatar
    Super Dave

    Well, it’s back to the salt mine.
    Mornin’ Gang

  2. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    We need to nominate a nice, safe candidate who’s main attribute is his business acumen. Challenging Obama on ideological grounds is taking too big a chance to take when an economy as bad as the one we have now will insure an easy win.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/how-the-economy-collapsed-as-a-political-issue

  3. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    If we encourage people to turn away from what is objectively true and good, to cherish instead their beliefs, whatever those may happen to be, we are teaching them not to think at all.
    .. To say, “I will be true to myself,” is equivalent to saying, “I will do just as I please,” nor does the addition of “my beliefs” provide any limit to the narcissism, since what is emphasized is not the objective truth of those beliefs, or their transcendent authority, but merely the fact that they happen to be mine. When they cease to please me, then, I am free to alter them, to “believe” something else, to “bend with the remover to remove.” When the wind turns, so does the weathervane.
    Why attach any importance to something so petty? “Stupidity is always a vice,” writes Jacques Maritain, and if man is by nature a political animal, then this sort of institutionalized stupidity has implications for the polity.

  4. bob42 Avatar

    Wagonburner, thank you for that very interesting read. Seriously.

    Truths are immutable and will never change; truths are true – given similar surrounding conditions – but might change dramatically if those surrounding conditions change.

    Is there a difference between facts and “truth?”
    For example, while “conditions” improved dramatically afterwords, no facts changed when humans discovered that some diseases are caused by germs, not sin or demons.
    Were the notions of a flat earth and a geocentric universe “True” until science provided facts proving that both of those beliefs were entirely, consistently, and eternally false?

  5. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Is there a difference between facts and “truth?”

    In my mind, facts = truth (small “t”). Facts can change, e.g., the sun is a star. In a few billion years, the sun will be a cinder floating around in space.
    Facts can also change based upon our understanding of how things work. Physics provides many examples. Ancient Greeks believed everything could be broken down into some combination of Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water. Later on, atomic theory came along to give us molecules and atoms. Then the subatomic particles (protons, neutrons, electrons). Now quarks and the other bosons. As I understand it (very little), string theory is moving in on the boson world.
    Truth is unchanging. While we may understand it differently, the underlying Truth itself is as it always was and always will be – from before all ages to after all ages.

  6. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    Interesting, Mr. Sarge.

  7. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #4 shannon

    It is bad to be ignorant, but someone who is ignorant of the courses of the planets can yet be wise in the ways of men. Stupidity is different. Stupidity, I believe, takes real work. Nature provides each of us with a certain measure of dullness and sluggishness of mind; it is only by means of persistence and, for some, hard study that one can deepen that dullness into stupidity.

    🙂

  8. Hamous Avatar

    I can see this is shaping up to be another one of Bobolicious’s rants on … what’s the meme you’re using now to disparage our faith? Oh yeah, “Sky Daddy”. I, for one, am gonna stay out of your circle jerk of hate and intolerance today.

  9. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Its a special kind of self righteous hate. The kind that purports to come from reason and logic, but s actually deeply rooted in a poisoned heart.

  10. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    7 Shannon says:
    October 1, 2012 at 8:00 am
    Interesting, Mr. Sarge.

    And coincidentally on target for the Original Post.

    “The influence of identification on attitudes toward the perceived elements of politics has been far more important than the influence of these attitudes on party identification itself,” the authors wrote. That is: Party identification appeared, at times, to trump voters experience of reality.

    In other words, Democrats don’t see a bad economy simply beause they are Democrats, and to acknowledge that the economy sucks dead birds would be to have to admit that the policies they have been championing for decades don’t work. This has an effect on Independents, many of whom will see Republican emphasis on the bad economic news as mere partisan sniping, a concept that is encourgaed by Democrats and the Media (but I repeat myself).
    That’s why a debate about ideology wins the day. Arguing from the superior moral position that comes with Conservative values is a winner. When we argue from an ideologial standpoint, we don’t have to tell Indpendents that the economy is bad and Liberal policies are actually hurting the people they are supposed to help, they will come to that conclusion themselves—an effect that is much more powerful and a good deal more difficult for Democrats to penetrate.

  11. Katfish Avatar

    Slight digression? (Yall decide) Above I ‘see’ truth – change – facts etc
    Here are several of all:
    Going Out of Business!

  12. Tedtam Avatar

    I can see this happening (well, I wish it would happen):
    Obama: “As a society, we are responsible for those among us who need our help – the poor, the oppressed, the ones who did not win life’s lottery like you, Mr. Romney.”
    Romney: “I started from scratch myself, President Obama, and I remember those days when Ann and I were poor and trying to raise all those boys. And while I know that I may have a certain talent in business and gift for understanding and solving problems, I also have an inherent belief that most people can manage their own lives, provided that the business atmosphere is conducive to job growth. We provide a free education, which the local governments and parents can and should manage. Whether the students are taught to take advantage of that is up to the students. If we promote a good business environment, then it’s up to the adults to take advantage of the benefits of that environment. If people do not educate themselves or see the importance of a job for their personal dignity, that is a failure of their local culture and not a responsibility of the federal government. This isn’t racial, it’s cultural. Until the culture is changed, there will always be a subculture of people who believe there is no way out of their poverty, that they are unable to provide for themselves, and that their children are condemned to repeat their dependency. There is nothing more sad, in my opinion, than a parent teaching their child the importance of a social worker in their lives.”

  13. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    When we argue from an ideologial standpoint, we don’t have to tell Indpendents that the economy is bad and Liberal policies are actually hurting the people they are supposed to help, they will come to that conclusion themselves—an effect that is much more powerful and a good deal more difficult for Democrats to penetrate.

    While I agree that this this is the preferred method of education and conversion from independent to Conservative, the problem lies in the hard core fact that the overwhelming bombardment of messaging is from the false teachings of lib-terd-demo-nazi-LSM wing of socialism. The ones who manage to penetrate that fog of BS and actually look at the facts present, absent from spin, usually wind up in the Conservative camp. This penetration requires one to be able to separate themselves from the emotion and tradition associated with the parties and the ability to discern that which actually is from that which is not.

  14. bob42 Avatar

    This nice thing about facts is that they are true whether people know them or not, or believe them or not.

    Facts can change, e.g., the sun is a star. In a few billion years, the sun will be a cinder floating around in space.

    No fact changed there at all. Our knowledge of several sets of facts related to the life cycles of stars was increased, over time, by objective study of the nature of things we are able to observe,and by challenging theories that had been previously been considered true. The same goes for the limited understanding of elements at the time of the Greeks.

    Truth is unchanging. While we may understand it differently, the underlying Truth itself is as it always was and always will be – from before all ages to after all ages.

    I suspect we are each operating in radically different concepts of the definition of “Truth,” especially in regard to its origin.

  15. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    20 geeky/nerdy science jokes.
    #14 & #20

  16. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #16 bob
    So what is the source of Truth?

  17. Tedtam Avatar

    It took me a minute to get the Batman joke. 😀

  18. Tedtam Avatar

    For Bob, the source of “truth” is the alphabet.

  19. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    They’re gonna dig up Arafat to see if the cause of death was poisoning via 210Po. The median lethal dose of 210Po is only about a microgram, which is a tiny amount. If my math is correct, the physical amount would be a sphere with a radius of about 0.1mm.
    The half-life of 210Po is right at six months. This would mean that in the eight years since Arafat assumed room temperature that only about 1/216 of the original 210Po would remain. I’m not sure that would even be detectable.
    Maybe chemistry-boy can shed additional light on this.

  20. bob42 Avatar

    WB, the source of truth for me is the accurate understanding of the natural world, a result of our our innate curiosity and the tools we’ve learned to build that help increase our visibility of our immediate surroundings and the entire universe.

  21. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    How do you know your understanding is accurate?

  22. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    WB, the source of truth for me is the accurate understanding of the natural world

    Translation:
    Its what I want it to be because I’m the one who decides what is accurate.

  23. Tedtam Avatar

    I say again.
    Alllergies
    suck.
    /making futile attempts to draw O2 in

  24. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    G’Morning All

    10 Sarge says:
    October 1, 2012 at 8:11 am
    Its a special kind of self righteous hate. The kind that purports to come from reason and logic, but s actually deeply rooted in a poisoned heart.

    Sarge wins the nail on the head award.

    13 Katfish

    Great post

  25. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    The Texas saga begins. (Not to discredit Austin Colony or any of the other pioneers)

    General Land Office opens
    October 01, 1837
    On this day in 1837, John P. Borden opened the General Land Office in Houston. John, with his brother Gail Borden Jr., had surveyed and laid out the town of Houston in 1836. As first commissioner of the new land office, John Borden faced the monumental job of compiling and preserving the many Spanish and Mexican land titles issued before the republic. He began with no funds or employees to assist him, yet by the end of 1837 he had successfully acquired documents from all over Texas. He also registered and surveyed new grants. In 1839 he moved the General Land Office to Austin and transported almost 5,000 pounds of documents by wagon. The military bounties, veteran donations, headrights, and homestead preemptions issued by Borden and successive commissioners amounted to more than 75 million acres granted to individuals.

  26. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    And the Huntsville saga begins

    The Texas State Penitentiary at Huntsville houses its first prisoner
    October 01, 1849
    On this day in 1849, the first prisoner, a convicted horse thief from Fayette County, entered the partially completed Texas State Penitentiary at Huntsville. The facility held only three prisoners in 1849, but by 1855 it housed seventy-five convicts, and by 1860, 182. In 1998 there were six prison units in Huntsville, and the Texas Department of Criminal Justice was responsible for more than 146,000 adult inmates at units throughout the state.

  27. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    Its what I want it to be

    precisely

  28. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    How deceptively easy life must be when you are free of any authoritah but your own.

  29. Hamous Avatar

    You can already see the swagger among “progressives”. They’ve bought into the media belief that the election is all but over. If RMoney pulls it off look for the Democrats to violently scream that he stole the election because the outcome will be so much different than the pre-election and exit polls (see the Bradley Effect). The HNP/LLMD will incite this violence with false claims of “disenfranchisement” and “voter suppression”. His Beard will be even shriller. His sidekick will go full-on fire-and-brimstone black preacher. The media, unwilling to admit the fact that they were biasing the polls all along, will obediently comply with the narrative. And the Fall of 2012 will look like the Summer of 1967. Not the “summer of love” one but the “Detroit & Newark are in flames” one. It’s not going to be pretty.

  30. Hamous Avatar

    How deceptively easy life must be when you are free of any authoritah but your own.

    Oh, but the burden of the Elitist is that they must endure the mindless drivel of the Sky Daddy worshipers. It has to get tedious for the Enlightened.

  31. Adee Avatar
    Adee

    Good morning Hamsters. Great start with 57 at 6:30; now sunny, 71, with a steady northerly breeze. Fall is here and so welcome. Regrettably this is one of the worst allergy seasons we’ve experienced in our 32 years of living in the countryside. We are surrounded by giant ragweed growing wild everywhere–and this has been a good year for ragweed, and tree pollen, and grass pollen. Windows open and antihistamines taken.
    Kleenex sales must be skyrocketing.
    The acorn discordant symphony continues on the garden room roof under which I am sitting. Wet acorns thump louder and roll farther. Can still hear them anywhere in the house, some larger than others obviously. We can’t recall such a loud continuous display in any previous fall, but then the drought last year was worse by far than any previous summer out here. Plants and trees seem to be trying extra hard to produce well against another possible barren year. They are succeeding. Pecan tress are loaded and branches bending but not yet dropping many nuts. No sampling yet so no clue as to how good/not so good they might be.

  32. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #19 Tedtam says:

    It took me a minute to get the Batman joke.

    Ima need a l’il hint, I been stumped.

  33. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    One degree of separation for you Hampsters.
    Amanda (Bunny) Fosdick is a long time friend of ours, She and daughter Reesa were housemates ’til Reesa moved to NY to pursue the theater. She was a country girl from Amarillo that grew up in a deer blind, got her degree and went on to become the “Large Loans Manager” for an international bank that y’all know well. ‘Coupla years ago she met and married a successful yacht broker. They lived on dry land for a little while, but Bunny fell in love with the sea and they decided to move onto their 37’ Irwin. After making sure she could adjust to cramped sea life, they took off on a cruise throughout the Caribbean. Coming back from their venture, they moved to N. Carolina, as most of his large sailboat market is on the East CoastThey recently invented a fresh water manufacturing system for boats and made a few quick sales. He was on his way to Florida to install a new system when this took place.

    Pilot tells story of harrowing plane crash
    By Dane Schiller | Sunday, September 30, 2012
    The situation was critical. The options few. The chances of survival even more minuscule.
    With smoke filling the cockpit of the small, twin-engine plane from Baytown, pilot Theodore Wright knew there was no time to gradually descend to the turquoise waters 30 miles off the coast of Louisiana. He pushed the steering wheel forward and dove straight for the Gulf of Mexico two miles below.
    About 20 minutes before sunset, the bright orange Coast Guard helicopter swooped in and hovered above. A rescue swimmer jumped in the water. A basket was lowered.
    “Ted and I looked at each other and shook hands when we knew it was over,” Fosdick said.
    Fosdick, who just moved from Houston to North Carolina, took a bus home – on orders from his wife.

    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Pilot-tells-story-of-harrowing-plane-crash-3907259.php
    Here’s her blog link

    Princess Aboard
    Sunday, September 30, 2012
    My Heart Stopped Beating
    There are certain calls that I wife should not have to wait for. One from the coast guard, to tell you if your husband is alive or dead, is one of them.
    Thursday, September 20th it was early evening and I was finishing up some computer work when I received a call on our DIY Watermakers 1-800 number. I was asked if my hubby was on a plane with his friend flying from Texas to Florida and if he was that the coast guard had been in contact regarding an emergency on the aircraft.

    http://princessaboard.blogspot.com/2012/09/my-heart-stopped-beating.html?spref=fb

  34. Katfish Avatar

    #31 – KEY WORD: ‘deceptively’

  35. Adee Avatar
    Adee

    Wonderful posts OTL #28-29. Presume you are cured of last week’s illness and are now safe from it for the duration. 🙂 #27, ditto.

  36. bob42 Avatar

    How do you know your understanding is accurate?

    I don’t and I probably never will. That’s why I’m skeptical of every truth claim. Degrees of accuracy vary, and it tends to be lower in the following environments:
    A truth claim self-declares its accuracy (circular logic)
    A claim is declared to be true by a person or organization for reasons other than the endeavors of increased knowledge
    A claim lacks reliable facts to support its truthfulness
    A claim is declared to be true because the declarer really, really wants it to be true
    What are your criteria for judging the truthfulness of a claim?

  37. Katfish Avatar

    #36 – remarkable and glorious story!
    cool heads prevailed for sure!

  38. Tedtam Avatar

    #35 Mharper
    Sodium = Na
    Say it for each molecule you see. Think “campy Batman series”. You’ll get it.

  39. bob42 Avatar

    How deceptively easy life must be when you are free of any authoritah but your own.

    We are all involuntarily subject to the authoritah of facts and nature. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with individuals voluntarily subjecting themselves the authoritah of their choosing.

  40. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    Adee
    That dang cold hung on ’til this Saturday. Finally got some real food in me Sat. night. I’m back to normal today, though.

  41. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    I don’t and I probably never will.

    Yes, you will.

  42. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    Ah, the lonesome life of the practitioners of scientism.

  43. Tedtam Avatar

    Military absentee ballots declining.
    I can’t say for sure, but I think I’m smelling something. Combine this with a story a few days ago about an incorrect return date given to military voters, and I can’t help but feel uncomfortable with this administration’s attempts to assist the military vote.

  44. Tedtam Avatar

    Mharper – this might help you.
    What I hear in this version is “DA” not “NA,” so it might just end up confusing you, but you’re pretty smart. I think you’ll be okay.

  45. bob42 Avatar

    #45/46 I’m skeptical of those two truth claims too. They fail three of the four criteria mentioned in #39.

  46. bob42 Avatar

    An exciting career as a pouring supervisor awaits me in the Boobie-Beer bottling industry.

  47. Katfish Avatar

    TOTUS’s claim that Bush’s policies led to 90 percent of the current deficit? Four Pinnocchios, so look out for both of those Wednesday.

    Christie responds to Obama whopper: ‘Stop lying, Mr. President.’

  48. Tedtam Avatar

    #53 Katfish
    I get so tired of the “perpetuating the trickle-down policies that led us to this situation” that the Dems are so fond of using.
    Capitalism didn’t bring us to this crisis. It was governmental meddling that got us to this crisis.

  49. Adee Avatar
    Adee

    #53 Katfish
    Mary Katharine Ham know how to turn a phrase all right. She said that in the Gov. Christie appearance that Steffy ran a part of the 2-minute Obama ad owing to there wasn’t enough time to run the Aeneid on TV. Hysterical. Still laughing. 🙂
    Go Mary Katharine.

  50. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #41 TT

    Think “campy Batman series”.

    Well, I don’t think this gag got it right. The part at the end of the old Batman theme, where actual voices are chanting it, it is: “Da da da da da da da da BATMAN“. Not Na. And there is no element with symbol Da. Closest is Db — Dubnium — which must have been discovered after I left college.

  51. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #43
    Oh Sarge, you funny funny man.
    🙂

  52. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #48 TT
    Oh you agree with me, from listening to it. Google does turn up references to “Na na Batman”, but someone commented, the purely instrumental part of the theme does sort of sound like “Na na” while the chanted lyric is “Da da”.
    By a bizarre coincidence, I was out having my hearing tested this morning.
    🙂

  53. Hamous Avatar

    Mmm mmm mmm. How come we don’t have Angry Poutine at the BK in the barrio?

  54. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    I

    get so tired of the “perpetuating the trickle-down policies that led us to this situation” that the Dems are so fond of using.

    Best response is that your tired of the “trickle up poverty policies” of the current administration.

  55. Tedtam Avatar

    Just had some chicken soup, and I’m starting to cough up stuff.
    I hope it’s a good sign. I hate being sick.
    Hate.
    It.

  56. Hamous Avatar

    Thanks for the visual

  57. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #59 Hamous
    I haven’t seen poutine on any menu south of Windsor, ON.
    That said, I want some Angry Bacon Poutine.

  58. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #61 Tedtam
    Get thee to your friendly neighborhood drugstore and get a package of Mucinex 12hr Max Strength.

  59. Tedtam Avatar

    #62 Hammy
    Any time I can make your day, dude… 😉

  60. Tedtam Avatar

    I was wondering if I’d get any sleep last night, as I didn’t get much the night before. I was so drugged with allergy medicine, so tired, that I actually got a decent night’s sleep, despite the extra pillows under my head and shoulders that had me almost sitting up in bed.
    I’m still tired, but I think it’s because of the decreased oxygen level and the constant struggle to breathe.
    With the change in the weather, I’m hoping this eases up.
    I hate being sick.
    Hate.
    It.

  61. Tedtam Avatar

    #63 WB

    That said, I want some Angry Bacon Poutine.

    I’m sorry, but I have this vision of the poutine flying through the air.

  62. Tedtam Avatar

    It seems that TBO wants to violate law in an effort to save his re-election chances:

    Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) says that he will do anything he can to block the Obama administration from reimbursing defense contractors for severance costs if the firms don’t send layoff notices to employees.
    The Obama administration issued guidance Friday that said defense firms’ costs would be covered if they have to layoff workers due to canceled contracts under the across-the-board cuts set to take effect Jan. 2.
    The layoff notices have become a politically charged issue because they could have come just four days ahead of the election because of a 60-day notice required by federal law for mass layoffs.
    /snip
    “I will do everything in my power to make sure not one taxpayer dollar is spent reimbursing companies for failure to comply with WARN Act,” Graham told The Hill in a phone interview Monday. “That is so beyond the pale — I think it’s patently illegal.”

  63. Tedtam Avatar

    Bizarre ad, but I laughed when I heard “Do you want 500 million Americans to lose their jobs?”
    When was it that she quoted some impossibly large number of people were losing their jobs on a weekly basis? /rummaging through the brain bin, trying to remember

  64. Tedtam Avatar

    Dennis on the TSA: “If I wanted to be touched between my legs by a man, I’d live in San Francisco. I have options.”
    I’m not holding out hope, but it would be sweet if Nancy’s butt got kicked back to whatever rock she crawled from.

  65. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #61TT : OY VEY!, Jewish Penecillin. My chicken soup is the best. Everyone who tries it says so.

  66. Adee Avatar
    Adee

    #64 Wagonburner
    Agree with your suggestion about Mucinex.
    Also works well for me for opening plugged middle ears and stuffed head..

  67. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    Bobo:

    How do you know your understanding is accurate?
    I don’t and I probably never will.

    There will come a time in the not too distant future (<10 years) when you will have perfect clarity and in the same instant the biggest "Oh Crap" moment of your existence.

  68. bob42 Avatar

    I’m sorry, but I have this vision of the poutine flying through the air.

    There’s an app for that, but it won’t be available until iPhone 10.

  69. Hamous Avatar

    There will come a time in the not too distant future (<10 years) when you will have perfect clarity and in the same instant the biggest “Oh Crap” moment of your existence.

    Dang. How old do you think he is? I’d give him at least 20 for that particular epiphany.

  70. bob42 Avatar

    Gee, and all this time I thought the world was ending on December 21, 2012.

    There will come a time in the not too distant future (<10 years) when you will have perfect clarity and in the same instant the biggest "Oh Crap" moment of your existence.

    Congrats. Your claim rates a four out of four. What are your criteria for judging the truthfulness of a claim?

  71. Hamous Avatar

    Your incessant claim redefining marriage rates a four out of four on your own scale.

  72. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #75 Hammie: It has nothing to do with his age.
    #76 Boboil:

    Gee, and all this time I thought the world was ending on December 21, 2012.

    Negative. Nothing of significance is gonna happen on the winter solstice except the shortest day of the solar year. If you want a clue, you are gonna hafta open your mind and look to The Scriptures, The HOLY festivals outlined in the Torah as they are shadow pictures of things to come and help explain things that have already happened.
    You will forgive me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for you to come up with the answer.

  73. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    My chicken soup is the best. Everyone who tries it says so.

    That is inadequate criteria for the truthfulness of your claim.

  74. Hamous Avatar

    This can’t be right. Cigarettes are legal. There is no stupid war on the silly tobacco plant hence there can be no smuggling.

  75. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #79 Shannon:

    That is inadequate criteria for the truthfulness of your claim.

    Then I guess you are gonna hafta darken my doorway and see for yourself sometime.

  76. Katfish Avatar

    #80 – Presuming your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek – smuggling is EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE…………the only impetus needed is inconsistent pricing (or taxing) in disparate locales

  77. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #73 Bones

    There will come a time in the not too distant future (<10 years)

    Please do not put, make, or throw any prophesies on the Couch. That is not in your job description.

  78. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    That is not in your job description

    You really shouldn’t deliver such crushing blows to ol’ Bones.

  79. bob42 Avatar

    Bonecrusher, this is interesting. We both apply the same truth/fact criteria to Mayan claims, but you exempt your own claim. Interesting, but most illogical.

  80. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    Pretty good lede wagonburner, enough to serve as a separate front page article.
    Are truths malleable? That is can they be improved or even lay undiscovered awaiting a circumstance by which they become exposed? I think most folks upon some reflection would say yes. That is why Catholics have a church to interpret the rules and lead the sheep to the shepherd while Protestants bring the words of the shepherd to the sheep and let them make their own choice. Yes I know its simplistic but reasonably accurate, the point being the truth can evolve through interpretation.
    In this particular instance I believe you’re quoting the Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei, This commentary was issued coincident with the promulgation of “Ad tuendam fidem” by Pope John Paul II, modifying the Oriental and Latin codes of canon law. In other words an interpretation.
    Your quote from Ratzinger wasn’t complete, I’m sure it wasn’t intentional. His preface was:

    11. Examples. Without any intention of completeness or exhaustiveness, some examples of doctrines relative to the three paragraphs described above can be recalled.

    So by no means is the list complete, only illustrative. Now if one looks at your highlighted sentence one can see that it references the Evangelium Vitae by JP2. This, IMO, is a more complete “truth.” Although I am sure that there are those in the cafeteria line picking and choosing the truth they agree with. In it JP2 dwells on the sanctity of life, just not the ones embroiled in political advantage.

    God drove Cain out of his presence and sent him into exile far away from his native land, so that he passed from a life of human kindness to one which was more akin to the rude existence of a wild beast. God, who preferred the correction rather than the death of a sinner, did not desire that a homicide be punished by the exaction of another act of homicide”.

    Whoops! look like capital punishment’s out.

    And how can we fail to consider the violence against life done to millions of human beings, especially children, who are forced into poverty, malnutrition and hunger because of an unjust distribution of resources between peoples and between social classes?

    Unjust Distribution, what a campaign theme!

    And what of the violence inherent not only in wars as such but in the scandalous arms trade, which spawns the many armed conflicts which stain our world with blood?

    Care to hazard a guess which nation exports the most arms?

    What of the spreading of death caused by reckless tampering with the world’s ecological balance, by the criminal spread of drugs, or by the promotion of certain kinds of sexual activity which, besides being morally unacceptable, also involve grave risks to life?

    Self Explanatory

    It is impossible to catalogue completely the vast array of threats to human life, so many are the forms, whether explicit or hidden, in which they appear today!

    Agreed, but I don’t think that means one gets to pick and choose.
    A simple comment like mine doesn’t do justice to the rich tapestry that John Paul wove. IMO, 99% would be as eloquent coming from any other religion and I will freely admit that the words I quoted are better understood when placed in context, just like Cardinal Ratzinger’s.

  81. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    The discussion today reminds me, as all similar ones do, of Alan Sokal’s magnificent hoax of 1996.
    Here, little Bobby, hold my beer, take this joint and step off this balcony. We all know quantum gravity is an evil construct of the authoritarian duopoly. That’s it, just stand on the railing…you know you can fly.

    The Sokal affair, also known as the Sokal hoax,[1] was a publishing hoax perpetrated by Alan Sokal, a physics professor at New York University. In 1996, Sokal submitted an article to Social Text, an academic journal of postmodern cultural studies. The submission was an experiment to test the journal’s intellectual rigor and, specifically, to investigate whether such a journal would “publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if it (a) sounded good and (b) flattered the editors’ ideological preconceptions.”[2]
    The article “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity”, published in the Social Text Spring/Summer 1996 “Science Wars” issue, proposed that quantum gravity is a social and linguistic construct. At that time, the journal did not practice academic peer review and did not submit the article for outside expert review by a physicist.[3][4] On its date of publication (May 1996), Sokal revealed in Lingua Franca that the article was a hoax, identifying it as “a pastiche of Left-wing cant, fawning references, grandiose quotations, and outright nonsense . . . structured around the silliest quotations [by postmodernist academics] he could find about mathematics and physics”.[2]
    The resultant academic and public quarrels concerned the scholarly merit, or lack thereof, of humanistic commentary about the physical sciences; the influence of postmodern philosophy on social disciplines in general; academic ethics, including whether Sokal was right or wrong to deceive the editors and readers of Social Text; and whether the journal had exercised the appropriate intellectual rigor before publishing the pseudoscientific article.

  82. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #86 shamaal
    Be careful in ascribing to me that which I did not say.
    In the case of capital punishment, the Catechism states very clearly the position of the Church (Cf. CCC 2266).
    As to the remaining social ill that you so helpfully point out, all I can say is that mankind in general is imperfect. Furthermore, the United States in particular is far from perfect. That said, I can think of no other political entity that has done more to advance the causes of liberty and social conscience than has the United States.
    That there remains unspeakable evil in the world is a statement on the fallen nature of man, not on the shortcomings (numerous though they may be) of the United States. The United States is not and cannot be the policeman of the entire world; there will always be evil and in such an amount that no single human endeavor can end it.
    It is only through continued effort, prayerful action, and divine providence that evil can be reduced and, one day, eliminated.

  83. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    Here’s another take on truth, from Wagonburner’s lede, Cardinal Ratzinger was commenting on an Apostolic Letter written by JP2 written by JP2. (The hierachy of Bulls, Apostolic Letters, Encyclicals and other whatnot is worthy of an entire discussion in and of itself, but I digress.)The AL inserted a lacuna regarding the second category of truths.
    The question then is if one follows a truth laid out by the RC, which is then later found to be incomplete or perhaps in error, can you still be held accountable. That is, is the truth determined by your sincere belief, and if so, can it then be called universal?
    If one took a birth control pill prior to the RC ban, does it count as a sin. If one eats meat on Friday, but Vatican II is overturned, is one stuck.
    I use the RC only as an example, the question applies to all truth seekers. Did folks who lived and died before the New Testament get into Heaven?

  84. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    #88 Wagonburner
    No disrespect intended, I gladly recant any aspersions be they intended or by omission. It’s a rare opportunity to discuss these topics.

  85. Hamous Avatar

    #88 wagonburner

    Be careful in ascribing to me that which I did not say.

    That’s his modus operandi, and I’ve warned him numerous times about such tactics. He should consider this his last warning.
    #90 Shamaal

    No disrespect intended, I gladly recant any aspersions be they intended or by omission. It’s a rare opportunity to discuss these topics.

    Simply put, that is bullshit. It was a deliberate ploy. Maybe you think I’ve forgotten. Maybe you think you can occasionally get away with it. I assure you you’re wrong on either account.

  86. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    Here’s another observation the nature of revealed truth. Again, I’m not picking on the RC, but Aquinas andthe Doctors of the Church provided so many rich examples of thought. This is an observation, not a question.
    If one follows the belief that if one is not baptized, one does not enter into heaven; what then of those who die in infancy prior to baptism ( limbus infantium)? JP2 commissioned a document seeking to eplain the issue.

    What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament. Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.

    What is important to me is the acknowledgement that all has not been revealed. There are truths waiting to be discovered.

  87. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #89 shamaal

    The question then is if one follows a truth laid out by the RC, which is then later found to be incomplete or perhaps in error, can you still be held accountable. That is, is the truth determined by your sincere belief, and if so, can it then be called universal?

    That’s all where the “hierarchy” of truths comes in. There are Truths such as the Holy Trinity, the divinity/dual nature of Christ, the sanctity of human life, &c. that are immutable. Immutable Truths are exactly that – immutable.
    Birth control falls into this area.
    The Pill works by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the wall of the uterus. This fails on (at least) two conditions: conception has already occurred, meaning we see a de facto abortion, and artificial contraception renders the conjugal act as recreation and not for the purpose of uniting a man and a woman in a deeper relationship with the possibility of bringing another life into existence (sorry, bob42). The Catechism speaks to this near where capital punishment is discussed.
    btw – AFAIK, artificial contraception in any form has always been disallowed by the Church.
    There are many other topics upon which the Church has rendered an opinion. These are just that – opinion intended to guide the flock toward a better life. The capital punishment discussion is an example of this. These do not carry the weight of immutable truth or even “truth”; they represent the teaching of the Church toward issues of morality.

  88. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    If one follows the belief that if one is not baptized, one does not enter into heaven; what then of those who die in infancy prior to baptism ( limbus infantium)?

    To be perfectly honest, I don’t worry about that.
    God made the place; He made the rules; He calls the shots. I am perfectly ok with whatever He decides.
    Put another way – that issue is way above my pay grade; I am not qualified to make that call, nor am I inclined to.

  89. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    Not intended to be a discussion of RC practices, beliefs or faith, only the nature and universality of truth.

  90. Hamous Avatar

    To be perfectly honest

    Can one be imperfectly honest?

  91. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Literary license.

  92. bob42 Avatar

    Texpat

    Here, little Bobby, hold my beer, take this joint and step off this balcony. We all know quantum gravity is an evil construct of the authoritarian duopoly. That’s it, just stand on the railing…you know you can fly.

    I’d think that was funny even if I hadn’t been in my stash. If I read that in the morning I’d have rated it a 5 on the coffee spew scale. Now it’s worth a cough. Thanks for the inspiration.
    Should our overall understanding of theories such as quantum gravity (or string theory) improve to the point of being likely facts I can assure you that I hold no loyalties to any notions that such knowledge would displace.

  93. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    God made the place; He made the rules; He calls the shots. I am perfectly ok with whatever He decides.

    One of the most simple concepts in Christianity, and one that guys like Bobo and Shamshizzle just can’t wrap thier heads around, probably because they see themselves on an equal plane with the Creator of The Universe.
    He’s God. I’m not.
    I found that once I understood that one, the rest was pretty easy.

  94. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    I found that once I understood that one, the rest was pretty easy.

    That and:
    God, I have sinned against you and my brothers and sisters.
    I am sorry. Please forgive me.
    Please help me to do better.

  95. bob42 Avatar

    WB

    Put another way – that issue is way above my pay grade; I am not qualified to make that call, nor am I inclined to.

    I’m with you there. If we’re not inclined to make such calls for ourselves then it follows that we would not be inclined to make it for others.

  96. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    One of the most simple concepts in Christianity …………………..

    Actually one of the most simple concepts in most of the monotheistic religions be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Church of Latter Day Saints, Orthodox, etc.

  97. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    If we’re not inclined to make such calls for ourselves then it follows that we would not be inclined to make it for others.

    You will not be able to find anywhere I have done that. Your relationship (or lack thereof) with God is your business and nobody else’s.
    You will find where I have stated clearly that the path toward salvation lies with Jesus Christ. It is up to the individual and his/her conscience whether (s)he agrees with that. Your eternal soul is exactly that: yours. You have free will and you get to make the decisions. You will also face any consequences of those decisions.
    God is the ultimate libertarian.
    He also loves you just as much as he loves me.

  98. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    #98 Bob

    …quantum gravity (or string theory) improve to the point of being likely facts…

    I think string theory will fade as a comprehensive rationale. It just doesn’t work out on the margins.
    The morning comes early for me tomorrow…

  99. GJT Avatar
    GJT

    Oh boy October, month of pink and RenFest traffic. Cowboys losing is a good start though.

  100. shamaal Avatar
    shamaal

    I will close with a quote attributed to JP2.

    “Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn’t misuse it”.

  101. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    #106
    I’ll buy that.

  102. GJT Avatar
    GJT

    Romo ties career best with 5 interceptions, bless his heart.

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