Hambone v3.0

John the Baptist – Obtuse or Rhetorical?

Sunday’s Gospel reading was Matthew 11:2-11. The beginning couple of verses

When John the Baptist heard in prison of the works of the Christ,
he sent his disciples to Jesus with this question,
“Are you the one who is to come,
or should we look for another?”

raised a question in my mind, namely “Why would he ask such a question?”.

Recall John was the last prophet. We heard about his mission and message last week:

John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the desert of Judea
and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”
It was of him that the prophet Isaiah had spoken when he said:
A voice of one crying out in the desert,
Prepare the way of the Lord,
make straight his paths.

Recall also the visit Mary paid to her cousin Elizabeth (mother of John the Baptist) while both were pregnant:

39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! (Luke 1:39-42)

So, now we have an unborn John the Baptist recognizing that the Son of God is near him, the One Whom he is to announce and Whose path he is to make straight. Finally we have the baptism of Jesus by John in the River Jordan, an event discussed by all four Gospels:

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
.
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:13-17)

7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with[a] water, but he will baptize you with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
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The Baptism and Testing of Jesus
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9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:7-11)

15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with[a] water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with[b] the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and proclaimed the good news to them.
.
19 But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of his marriage to Herodias, his brother’s wife, and all the other evil things he had done, 20 Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison.
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The Baptism and Genealogy of Jesus
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21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:15-22)

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (John 1:15-18)

There are some noteworthy commonalities in these. In Matthew & John, we have John the Baptist recognizing Jesus as the Messiah when he approaches to be baptized. In Mark, Luke, & John, John the Baptist says that he (JtB) is not the Messiah, but the one who comes after him (JtB) is and that he (JtB) is not worthy to even untie his (Jesus) sandals. Finally, in Mattew, Mark, & Luke, after Jesus was baptized, the skies opened up and the voice of God Himself said “This is my Son, in Whom I am well pleased.”

It seems that after all that John the Baptist would have pretty much known that Jesus was the promised Messiah, but now he sends a couple of his guys over to Jesus to make sure?

Maybe I’m missing something here.

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54 responses to “John the Baptist – Obtuse or Rhetorical?”

  1. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Good question! I never thought of this.

    One possible answer is that John was asking on behalf of someone else, whose faith may have needed the bolstering directly from the lips of Jesus. Jesus making that declaration may have been needed for the benefit of others.

    Another possible answer – we all have our faith tested at times. Satan is always tugging at the hems of our robes, metaphorically speaking. Perhaps John was having a crisis of faith, despite his obvious advantages as you have listed here.

    I may peruse some commentary on this one.

  2. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Good question! I never thought of this.

    One possible answer is that John was asking on behalf of someone else, whose faith may have needed the bolstering directly from the lips of Jesus. Jesus making that declaration may have been needed for the benefit of others.

    Another possible answer – we all have our faith tested at times. Satan is always tugging at the hems of our robes, metaphorically speaking. Perhaps John was having a crisis of faith, despite his obvious advantages as you have listed here.

    I may peruse some commentary on this one.

  3. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Not speaking to the birther issue, my question about this story is:

    Lakin said in the videos that any reasonable person looking at available evidence would have questions about Obama’s eligibility to be president and that he had “no choice” but to disobey orders. Lakin said he would “gladly deploy” if Obama’s original birth certificate were released and proved authentic.
    /snip
    Hawaii law has long barred the release of a certified birth certificate to anyone who does not have a tangible interest.

    If a man is being asked to lay his life on the line on the orders of someone else whose authority he questions, how is this NOT a “tangible interest”? That’s about as tangible as anyone can get, IMHO.

  4. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Not speaking to the birther issue, my question about this story is:

    Lakin said in the videos that any reasonable person looking at available evidence would have questions about Obama’s eligibility to be president and that he had “no choice” but to disobey orders. Lakin said he would “gladly deploy” if Obama’s original birth certificate were released and proved authentic.
    /snip
    Hawaii law has long barred the release of a certified birth certificate to anyone who does not have a tangible interest.

    If a man is being asked to lay his life on the line on the orders of someone else whose authority he questions, how is this NOT a “tangible interest”? That’s about as tangible as anyone can get, IMHO.

  5. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Some possible answers that I have found:
    First:

    John had proclaimed Jesus as the lamb of God but had not personally witnessed his miracles. Also, the Jews were expecting a messiah who would free them from Roman control. Jesus didn’t fit that mold so, in prison, John had time to think and entertain doubts. He began to hear about the works of Christ, and may have wondered why Jesus didn’t, through some miracle, deliver him from his imprisonment. So he sent two of his disciples . . .


    Second – there were different schools of thought on what the Messiah would be like; perhaps John was familiar with these ancient texts and thus wanted to make sure:

    Jesus’ miracles are to be interpreted on multiple levels. The prophecies in the Old Testament are not just simplistic predictions that some guy will show up and work some magic. They are part of of a wider drama in Isaiah’s writting. In this drama, evil is defeated and a “Utopic Kingdom” is established. John’s ministry had focused on the wrath of God part. Jewish expectations generally thought in terms of military defeat of Israel’s political enemies, namely Rome in the first century.

    John didn’t see how Jesus was fulfilling this. Jesus responded by pointing out the other half of the equation. The miracles served multiple purposes. First, they demonstrated that Jesus had the power to establish the Messianic kingdom. Second, they were themselves the first glimmers of that kingdom. Third they were acted out parables regarding another aspect of Jesus’ ministry, namely the removal of “spiritual blindness”. As history demonstrates, the defeat of Rome proved not to be a military defeat, but a spiritual defeat. The Kingdom of God is not a political entity, nor is it some future post-apocalyptic kingdom, but the rule of Jesus in the hearts of Christians. It is the Church Invisible.


    Third reference: what I said in the beginning:

    Just as John had given Christ the first disciples who were chosen to be apostles, so too he know sends the Lord other disciples. Instructing them to question the Lord regarding his mission, St. John the Baptist offers his followers to Christ that they might become true disciples of the Lord.

  6. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Some possible answers that I have found:
    First:

    John had proclaimed Jesus as the lamb of God but had not personally witnessed his miracles. Also, the Jews were expecting a messiah who would free them from Roman control. Jesus didn’t fit that mold so, in prison, John had time to think and entertain doubts. He began to hear about the works of Christ, and may have wondered why Jesus didn’t, through some miracle, deliver him from his imprisonment. So he sent two of his disciples . . .


    Second – there were different schools of thought on what the Messiah would be like; perhaps John was familiar with these ancient texts and thus wanted to make sure:

    Jesus’ miracles are to be interpreted on multiple levels. The prophecies in the Old Testament are not just simplistic predictions that some guy will show up and work some magic. They are part of of a wider drama in Isaiah’s writting. In this drama, evil is defeated and a “Utopic Kingdom” is established. John’s ministry had focused on the wrath of God part. Jewish expectations generally thought in terms of military defeat of Israel’s political enemies, namely Rome in the first century.

    John didn’t see how Jesus was fulfilling this. Jesus responded by pointing out the other half of the equation. The miracles served multiple purposes. First, they demonstrated that Jesus had the power to establish the Messianic kingdom. Second, they were themselves the first glimmers of that kingdom. Third they were acted out parables regarding another aspect of Jesus’ ministry, namely the removal of “spiritual blindness”. As history demonstrates, the defeat of Rome proved not to be a military defeat, but a spiritual defeat. The Kingdom of God is not a political entity, nor is it some future post-apocalyptic kingdom, but the rule of Jesus in the hearts of Christians. It is the Church Invisible.


    Third reference: what I said in the beginning:

    Just as John had given Christ the first disciples who were chosen to be apostles, so too he know sends the Lord other disciples. Instructing them to question the Lord regarding his mission, St. John the Baptist offers his followers to Christ that they might become true disciples of the Lord.

  7. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    No modify button – there’s a paragraph that should be attributed to a source reference above.

    My apologies to the source author.

  8. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    No modify button – there’s a paragraph that should be attributed to a source reference above.

    My apologies to the source author.

  9. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    Of the three, the last one seems most plausible.

    While the Israelites may have lost their faith over a period of many years before a new judge or king was raised up to help them restore their faith, the first couple of generations were fairly solid. Likewise, JtB, after seeing the skies open and hearing the actual Voice of God Himself saying “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased” would seem to be all a man of God would need to keep him believing his entire lifetime.

  10. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Of the three, the last one seems most plausible.

    While the Israelites may have lost their faith over a period of many years before a new judge or king was raised up to help them restore their faith, the first couple of generations were fairly solid. Likewise, JtB, after seeing the skies open and hearing the actual Voice of God Himself saying “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased” would seem to be all a man of God would need to keep him believing his entire lifetime.

  11. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    I am leaning towards the “despair of circumstances” answer. Remember, within just a few short weeks after seeing the Red Sea part and having the water stand up in a heap (in addition to all the other signs and wonders) the Israelites cast the golden calf. It was not turning out as JtB was figuring, he just needed some confirmation to be really sure. Put yourself in his shoes, your entire life was preparation for the announcement of THE MESSIAH and you are doing exactly as you were led by THE SPIRIT to do and you find yourself in jail facing likely execution – don’t you think you might be having a few doubts of your own – I know I would.

  12. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    I am leaning towards the “despair of circumstances” answer. Remember, within just a few short weeks after seeing the Red Sea part and having the water stand up in a heap (in addition to all the other signs and wonders) the Israelites cast the golden calf. It was not turning out as JtB was figuring, he just needed some confirmation to be really sure. Put yourself in his shoes, your entire life was preparation for the announcement of THE MESSIAH and you are doing exactly as you were led by THE SPIRIT to do and you find yourself in jail facing likely execution – don’t you think you might be having a few doubts of your own – I know I would.

  13. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    Recall that only Moses actually spoke directly with God (and saw a hint of His Glory); the people camped out in the desert were the ones who completely lost it.

    Moses, Elijah, and the rest of the prophets were specifically anointed by God to speak his words to the people. I can’t think of one who actually lost their faith (there could be one, but I just don’t know, so correct me if I’m wrong). JtB was sent specifically to prepare the way of the Messiah; it was his life’s purpose.

    I can see your point, but I just think that JtB could not have lost his faith, especially in light of having seen the heavens split and hearing the actual Voice of God boom out.

  14. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Recall that only Moses actually spoke directly with God (and saw a hint of His Glory); the people camped out in the desert were the ones who completely lost it.

    Moses, Elijah, and the rest of the prophets were specifically anointed by God to speak his words to the people. I can’t think of one who actually lost their faith (there could be one, but I just don’t know, so correct me if I’m wrong). JtB was sent specifically to prepare the way of the Messiah; it was his life’s purpose.

    I can see your point, but I just think that JtB could not have lost his faith, especially in light of having seen the heavens split and hearing the actual Voice of God boom out.

  15. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    I personally agree with the “message to the disciples” theory. I think John got the message loud and clear several times.

  16. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    I personally agree with the “message to the disciples” theory. I think John got the message loud and clear several times.

  17. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    On a side note – I laugh at those who believe that Mary gave birth to other children. I mean, Joseph was told – and believed – that Jesus was divine. Otherwise, he would have divorced Mary quietly, as he was considering. And if I were Joseph, knowing my wife was touched so intimately by God himself, I don’t think I could ever be more than her protector and love her without the carnal knowledge part. I mean, look at the Old Testament, and see what happened to men who touched the Ark. Mary was the new Ark, carrying the Son of God within her. I don’t think Joseph was stupid. I believe he took on this responsibility as his vocation.

    To have sex with the woman who chosen by God to give birth to the divine is either incredibly stupid or incredibly arrogant.

  18. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    On a side note – I laugh at those who believe that Mary gave birth to other children. I mean, Joseph was told – and believed – that Jesus was divine. Otherwise, he would have divorced Mary quietly, as he was considering. And if I were Joseph, knowing my wife was touched so intimately by God himself, I don’t think I could ever be more than her protector and love her without the carnal knowledge part. I mean, look at the Old Testament, and see what happened to men who touched the Ark. Mary was the new Ark, carrying the Son of God within her. I don’t think Joseph was stupid. I believe he took on this responsibility as his vocation.

    To have sex with the woman who chosen by God to give birth to the divine is either incredibly stupid or incredibly arrogant.

  19. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    I did not mean to imply that JtB “lost his faith”. I think that he was asking a reasonable question given his dire circumstances. Once the answer came back, I am sure that he was at peace (perhaps a Divinely bestowed one) and ready for what awaited him. That others around JtB were edified by the response of THE MESSIAH does not negate my position, both can be true at the same time.

    Recall that only Moses actually spoke directly with God (and saw a hint of His Glory); the people camped out in the desert were the ones who completely lost it.

    THEY ALL HEARD THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, and they all saw with their own eyes the signs and wonders.

  20. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    I did not mean to imply that JtB “lost his faith”. I think that he was asking a reasonable question given his dire circumstances. Once the answer came back, I am sure that he was at peace (perhaps a Divinely bestowed one) and ready for what awaited him. That others around JtB were edified by the response of THE MESSIAH does not negate my position, both can be true at the same time.

    Recall that only Moses actually spoke directly with God (and saw a hint of His Glory); the people camped out in the desert were the ones who completely lost it.

    THEY ALL HEARD THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, and they all saw with their own eyes the signs and wonders.

  21. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    #9 TT: I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this one.
    1) The TEXT refers to HIS brothers and sisters, there is no mention of them (from a previous marriage of Joseph) at the manger scene and if they existed then, they would have been there because all had to be there.
    2) HE chose to make a new (virgin) vessel clean for a specific purpose and she was willing – she said yes when Eve said no. There is no mention in Scripture that Mary was immaculately conceived nor that she had any other Divine purpose such as being “ever virgin” other than being a mother to The Messiah. After her assigned purpose, she became the wife of Joseph and was blessed with more children. That the first child through her womb was Divine does not preclude in any way her having other children in the normal fashion.
    3) Joseph was told that THE CHILD in Mary’s womb was of Divine origin which is why he did not divorce her quietly. Once her Divine mission was accomplished she was his wife in the normal sense.

    I laugh at those who believe that Mary gave birth to other children.

    This demonstrates arrogance and projects the message that “I can’t possibly be wrong, therefore you can’t possibly be right”. Very many intelligent, reasonable, faithful and thoughtful people disagree with your position.

  22. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #9 TT: I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this one.
    1) The TEXT refers to HIS brothers and sisters, there is no mention of them (from a previous marriage of Joseph) at the manger scene and if they existed then, they would have been there because all had to be there.
    2) HE chose to make a new (virgin) vessel clean for a specific purpose and she was willing – she said yes when Eve said no. There is no mention in Scripture that Mary was immaculately conceived nor that she had any other Divine purpose such as being “ever virgin” other than being a mother to The Messiah. After her assigned purpose, she became the wife of Joseph and was blessed with more children. That the first child through her womb was Divine does not preclude in any way her having other children in the normal fashion.
    3) Joseph was told that THE CHILD in Mary’s womb was of Divine origin which is why he did not divorce her quietly. Once her Divine mission was accomplished she was his wife in the normal sense.

    I laugh at those who believe that Mary gave birth to other children.

    This demonstrates arrogance and projects the message that “I can’t possibly be wrong, therefore you can’t possibly be right”. Very many intelligent, reasonable, faithful and thoughtful people disagree with your position.

  23. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    THEY ALL HEARD THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, and they all saw with their own eyes the signs and wonders.

    But none of them actually heard the Voice of God themselves, except for Moses.

  24. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    THEY ALL HEARD THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, and they all saw with their own eyes the signs and wonders.

    But none of them actually heard the Voice of God themselves, except for Moses.

  25. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    #12 They all heard HIS VOICE:

    Ex 20:18-19

    18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.
    NASU

    Deut 5:24-27
    ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives. 25 ‘ Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die. 26 ‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27
    NASU

    Pyro, with all due respect, the TEXT disagrees with your position. All of Israel heard the 10 Commandments from the Mouth of Y_VH; the balance of the Covenant was relayed to them by Moses. The balance of the Covenant was issued at the same event as the 10 Commandments. Carefully read EX 20 again and you will see that what I have said is true.

  26. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #12 They all heard HIS VOICE:

    Ex 20:18-19

    18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.
    NASU

    Deut 5:24-27
    ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives. 25 ‘ Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die. 26 ‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27
    NASU

    Pyro, with all due respect, the TEXT disagrees with your position. All of Israel heard the 10 Commandments from the Mouth of Y_VH; the balance of the Covenant was relayed to them by Moses. The balance of the Covenant was issued at the same event as the 10 Commandments. Carefully read EX 20 again and you will see that what I have said is true.

  27. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Bonecrusher – re virginity of Mary

    I’m simply going to refer you to this article. It answers pretty much everything, much better than I ever could.

    This demonstrates arrogance and projects the message that “I can’t possibly be wrong, therefore you can’t possibly be right”. Very many intelligent, reasonable, faithful and thoughtful people disagree with your position.

    Nope, not really. I can see why some people might be confused, and maybe my attitude is coming from a feminine point of view. I’m trying to put myself into a man’s shoes, and it’s possible that I can’t get there from here. Trying to put myself into Joseph’s position, knowing that Mary has the kind of relationship with God as she has, I’d be afraid to touch her in that way. I just couldn’t disrespect my Lord like that. Kinda like dating your father’s new wife, if that makes sense.

  28. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Bonecrusher – re virginity of Mary

    I’m simply going to refer you to this article. It answers pretty much everything, much better than I ever could.

    This demonstrates arrogance and projects the message that “I can’t possibly be wrong, therefore you can’t possibly be right”. Very many intelligent, reasonable, faithful and thoughtful people disagree with your position.

    Nope, not really. I can see why some people might be confused, and maybe my attitude is coming from a feminine point of view. I’m trying to put myself into a man’s shoes, and it’s possible that I can’t get there from here. Trying to put myself into Joseph’s position, knowing that Mary has the kind of relationship with God as she has, I’d be afraid to touch her in that way. I just couldn’t disrespect my Lord like that. Kinda like dating your father’s new wife, if that makes sense.

  29. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    This demonstrates arrogance and projects the message that “I can’t possibly be wrong, therefore you can’t possibly be right”. Very many intelligent, reasonable, faithful and thoughtful people disagree with your position.

    Well, coming from a pagan perspective, there is a strong possibility that it was lost in translation:

    The standard explanation is that the New Testament isn’t ordinary Greek. Some have suggested that parts of it may be translations from Aramaic. It is unknown if or how much of the New Testament had an Aramaic original, but even if none did, Aramaic had a strong influence on it. Probably all the New Testament authors except Luke were native Aramaic-speakers, and much of the dialogue in the Gospels originally occurred in Aramaic. Sometimes the Gospels even tell us the original words (e.g., “Talitha cumi” in Mark 5:41).

    This is important because the meaning of the Aramaic word for “brother” (aha) not only includes the meanings already mentioned but also includes other close relations, including cousins.

    In fact, there was no word for “cousin” in Aramaic. If one wanted to refer to the cousin relationship, one has to use a circumlocution such as “the son of his uncle” (brona d-`ammeh). This often is too much trouble, so broader kinship terms are used that don’t mean “cousin” in particular; e.g., ahyana (“kinsman”), qariwa (“close relation”), or nasha (“relative”). One such term is aha, which literally means “brother” but is also frequently used in the sense of “relative, kinsman.”

    The first Christians in Palestine, not having a word for cousin, would normally have referred to whatever cousins Jesus had with such a general term and, in translating their writing or speech into Greek, it is quite likely that the Aramaic word aha would have been rendered literally with the Greek word for brother (adelphos).

  30. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    This demonstrates arrogance and projects the message that “I can’t possibly be wrong, therefore you can’t possibly be right”. Very many intelligent, reasonable, faithful and thoughtful people disagree with your position.

    Well, coming from a pagan perspective, there is a strong possibility that it was lost in translation:

    The standard explanation is that the New Testament isn’t ordinary Greek. Some have suggested that parts of it may be translations from Aramaic. It is unknown if or how much of the New Testament had an Aramaic original, but even if none did, Aramaic had a strong influence on it. Probably all the New Testament authors except Luke were native Aramaic-speakers, and much of the dialogue in the Gospels originally occurred in Aramaic. Sometimes the Gospels even tell us the original words (e.g., “Talitha cumi” in Mark 5:41).

    This is important because the meaning of the Aramaic word for “brother” (aha) not only includes the meanings already mentioned but also includes other close relations, including cousins.

    In fact, there was no word for “cousin” in Aramaic. If one wanted to refer to the cousin relationship, one has to use a circumlocution such as “the son of his uncle” (brona d-`ammeh). This often is too much trouble, so broader kinship terms are used that don’t mean “cousin” in particular; e.g., ahyana (“kinsman”), qariwa (“close relation”), or nasha (“relative”). One such term is aha, which literally means “brother” but is also frequently used in the sense of “relative, kinsman.”

    The first Christians in Palestine, not having a word for cousin, would normally have referred to whatever cousins Jesus had with such a general term and, in translating their writing or speech into Greek, it is quite likely that the Aramaic word aha would have been rendered literally with the Greek word for brother (adelphos).

  31. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    There was a reference I read – probably Envoy magazine (I LOVE that rag!) – talked about the terms and cultures regarding family. As I recall, the early Jews had a tribal culture, and so the word for brother was not as important as being able to identify tribal relatives, such as cousins, etc. You see often that the wealth was to be kept “in the family,” and so men were sent to cousins to seek wives. One example was Jacob:

    Gen 28
    1 Isaac therefore called Jacob, greeted him with a blessing, and charged him: “You shall not marry a Canaanite woman!
    2 Go now to Paddan-aram, to the home of your mother’s father Bethuel, and there choose a wife for yourself from among the daughters of your uncle Laban.

    I agree with Hamous, a lot gets lost in translation. I have a book on the cultures and traditions of the Old Testament times, and it has cleared up more than one question for me. I think it’s an easy mistake to make, not taking the language and culture into context when reading Scripture. The message of the Bible is timeless, but it was written to reflect a specific time.

  32. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    There was a reference I read – probably Envoy magazine (I LOVE that rag!) – talked about the terms and cultures regarding family. As I recall, the early Jews had a tribal culture, and so the word for brother was not as important as being able to identify tribal relatives, such as cousins, etc. You see often that the wealth was to be kept “in the family,” and so men were sent to cousins to seek wives. One example was Jacob:

    Gen 28
    1 Isaac therefore called Jacob, greeted him with a blessing, and charged him: “You shall not marry a Canaanite woman!
    2 Go now to Paddan-aram, to the home of your mother’s father Bethuel, and there choose a wife for yourself from among the daughters of your uncle Laban.

    I agree with Hamous, a lot gets lost in translation. I have a book on the cultures and traditions of the Old Testament times, and it has cleared up more than one question for me. I think it’s an easy mistake to make, not taking the language and culture into context when reading Scripture. The message of the Bible is timeless, but it was written to reflect a specific time.

  33. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #13

    Pyro, with all due respect, the TEXT disagrees with your position.

    Actually I think it disagrees with yours

    Exodus 19

    20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the LORD said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the LORD and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them.”

    23 Moses said to the LORD, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

    24 The LORD replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the LORD, or he will break out against them.”

    25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

    Moses then told them “And God spoke all these words:” followed by the recitation of The Commandments.

    Oh, and you forgot a verse out of Exodus 20

    21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

  34. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    #13

    Pyro, with all due respect, the TEXT disagrees with your position.

    Actually I think it disagrees with yours

    Exodus 19

    20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the LORD said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the LORD and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them.”

    23 Moses said to the LORD, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

    24 The LORD replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the LORD, or he will break out against them.”

    25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

    Moses then told them “And God spoke all these words:” followed by the recitation of The Commandments.

    Oh, and you forgot a verse out of Exodus 20

    21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

  35. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    #13 bone
    Deut 5:1-5

    1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

    Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said: [the Ten Commandments…]

    This seems to say Israel did not see or hear the Voice of God directly, but through Moses.

    Exodus seems to say that they did hear the Voice of God, but more as thunder than actual words, especially if you also read chapter 19.

  36. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #13 bone
    Deut 5:1-5

    1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

    Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said: [the Ten Commandments…]

    This seems to say Israel did not see or hear the Voice of God directly, but through Moses.

    Exodus seems to say that they did hear the Voice of God, but more as thunder than actual words, especially if you also read chapter 19.

  37. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    I am baffled why y’all can’t believe what the TEXT states; the Israelites heard the voice of Y_VH during the 10 Commandments. HE said HE wanted them to hear it:

    Ex 19:9
    9 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.
    NASU

    Putting the above with a more complete reading of the passage in question:

    Ex 20:18-23

    18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.” 20 Moses said to the people, ” Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.” 21 So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.

    22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 2
    NASU

    When HE spoke it was probably the loudest thing that any human had ever heard. When HE spoke the ground shook and it terrified them. HE was speaking to the entire congregation of Israel so that they would all know and understand. Yes, it probably did sound like thunder, that does not mean that they could not discern what was being said.

    Deut 4:32-34

    32 “Indeed, ask now concerning the former days which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and inquire from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything been done like this great thing, or has anything been heard like it? 33 ” Has any people heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fire, as you have heard it, and survived? 34
    NASU
    snip
    Deut 4:35-37
    35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him. 36 ” Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
    NASU

    Deut 5:23-27
    “And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. 24 “You said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives. 25 ‘ Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die. 26 ‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
    NASU

    Here it is stated repeatedly that they heard HIS VOICE not thunder or rumbling although they heard that as well, the focus is that THEY HEARD HIS VOICE. Are you going to take the position that they could not understand what HE was saying??

    Another interesting thing here is that HE caused Moses to WRITE DOWN ALL THE WORDS OF Y_VH. THE WORDS either written in stone or in a book (scroll).

    Deut 31:24-27

    24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 “Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you. 27
    NASU

    Note here that the book was placed beside the ark,which contained the 10 commandments, the book contained the balance of the commandments statutes and ordinances. My belief is that HE caused HIS law to be written down so that man could not monkey around with the text to further his own goals. HE caused HIS LAW to be written down so that we would be able to know it and and DO IT.

    Rom 2:11-16
    11 For there is no partiality with God.

    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
    NASU

    Paul was very clear, He spent most of the first 3 chapters of Romans telling us how wonderful faith and grace are (AND THEY ARE, I AM NOT MINIMIZING THAT) then comes this to make sure that we do not get the wrong idea:

    Rom 3:31

    31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
    NASU

    One can not establish The Law (the written Torah as opposed to the “oral” tradition) and then say that it is of no effect.

  38. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    I am baffled why y’all can’t believe what the TEXT states; the Israelites heard the voice of Y_VH during the 10 Commandments. HE said HE wanted them to hear it:

    Ex 19:9
    9 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.
    NASU

    Putting the above with a more complete reading of the passage in question:

    Ex 20:18-23

    18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.” 20 Moses said to the people, ” Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.” 21 So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.

    22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 2
    NASU

    When HE spoke it was probably the loudest thing that any human had ever heard. When HE spoke the ground shook and it terrified them. HE was speaking to the entire congregation of Israel so that they would all know and understand. Yes, it probably did sound like thunder, that does not mean that they could not discern what was being said.

    Deut 4:32-34

    32 “Indeed, ask now concerning the former days which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and inquire from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything been done like this great thing, or has anything been heard like it? 33 ” Has any people heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fire, as you have heard it, and survived? 34
    NASU
    snip
    Deut 4:35-37
    35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him. 36 ” Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
    NASU

    Deut 5:23-27
    “And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. 24 “You said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives. 25 ‘ Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die. 26 ‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
    NASU

    Here it is stated repeatedly that they heard HIS VOICE not thunder or rumbling although they heard that as well, the focus is that THEY HEARD HIS VOICE. Are you going to take the position that they could not understand what HE was saying??

    Another interesting thing here is that HE caused Moses to WRITE DOWN ALL THE WORDS OF Y_VH. THE WORDS either written in stone or in a book (scroll).

    Deut 31:24-27

    24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 “Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you. 27
    NASU

    Note here that the book was placed beside the ark,which contained the 10 commandments, the book contained the balance of the commandments statutes and ordinances. My belief is that HE caused HIS law to be written down so that man could not monkey around with the text to further his own goals. HE caused HIS LAW to be written down so that we would be able to know it and and DO IT.

    Rom 2:11-16
    11 For there is no partiality with God.

    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
    NASU

    Paul was very clear, He spent most of the first 3 chapters of Romans telling us how wonderful faith and grace are (AND THEY ARE, I AM NOT MINIMIZING THAT) then comes this to make sure that we do not get the wrong idea:

    Rom 3:31

    31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
    NASU

    One can not establish The Law (the written Torah as opposed to the “oral” tradition) and then say that it is of no effect.

  39. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.

  40. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.

  41. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    I’m not sure why we’re even arguing this again so I’ll refrain from further antagonism.

    I do have questions for you, Bonecrusher – Do you follow all the Laws of the Old Testament? Dietary laws? Shaving laws? Sacrificial laws? If not, why not?

    I’m not trying be combative, I’m just curious at what seems to me to be a strange marriage of Judaism and Christianity. Is this “Messianic Judaism”?

  42. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    I’m not sure why we’re even arguing this again so I’ll refrain from further antagonism.

    I do have questions for you, Bonecrusher – Do you follow all the Laws of the Old Testament? Dietary laws? Shaving laws? Sacrificial laws? If not, why not?

    I’m not trying be combative, I’m just curious at what seems to me to be a strange marriage of Judaism and Christianity. Is this “Messianic Judaism”?

  43. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    #19 bone

    Paul was very clear, He spent most of the first 3 chapters of Romans telling us how wonderful faith and grace are (AND THEY ARE, I AM NOT MINIMIZING THAT) then comes this to make sure that we do not get the wrong idea:

    Rom 3:31

    31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
    NASU

    One can not establish The Law (the written Torah as opposed to the “oral” tradition) and then say that it is of no effect.

    Galatians 3:10-25

    10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[a] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[b] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[c] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[d] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
    .
    The Law and the Promise
    .
    15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
    .
    19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
    .
    21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
    .
    Children of God
    .
    23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

    n.b. – Everywhere in the New Testament where it says “Scripture” it means the Old Testament. The NT did not exist until several decades after Christ’s Resurrection.

  44. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    #19 bone

    Paul was very clear, He spent most of the first 3 chapters of Romans telling us how wonderful faith and grace are (AND THEY ARE, I AM NOT MINIMIZING THAT) then comes this to make sure that we do not get the wrong idea:

    Rom 3:31

    31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
    NASU

    One can not establish The Law (the written Torah as opposed to the “oral” tradition) and then say that it is of no effect.

    Galatians 3:10-25

    10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[a] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[b] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[c] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[d] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
    .
    The Law and the Promise
    .
    15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
    .
    19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
    .
    21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
    .
    Children of God
    .
    23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

    n.b. – Everywhere in the New Testament where it says “Scripture” it means the Old Testament. The NT did not exist until several decades after Christ’s Resurrection.

  45. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

    Other translations have the word guardian as tutor. The idea is that it is to teach us how to live, just as a guardian or tutor does today. Once we become adults we no longer need a tutor or guardian because all of the lessons we were supposed to have learned have become part of our lifestyle. Once we become an adult it would be ludicrous to forget or disavow all of our instruction wouldn’t it? This really fits perfectly with the New Covenant spoken of in Jer 31, HE will write the Law (HIS unchanging and written Torah, Word become flesh) on our hearts so that we will want to keep it. Once we become adults (to use the same analogy, not to be belittling) we should want to keep HIS ways because HIS law is written on our hearts.
    To those who say that because Christ “fulfilled” the Law then it is no longer in effect, that makes as much sense as:
    I come to a stop sign and make a perfect stop, therefore I never have to stop there again and neither does anyone else because I fulfilled the law perfectly with respect to that stop sign. HE is the same yesterday today and tomorrow; what HE says is how HE wants us to live goes on forever.

  46. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

    Other translations have the word guardian as tutor. The idea is that it is to teach us how to live, just as a guardian or tutor does today. Once we become adults we no longer need a tutor or guardian because all of the lessons we were supposed to have learned have become part of our lifestyle. Once we become an adult it would be ludicrous to forget or disavow all of our instruction wouldn’t it? This really fits perfectly with the New Covenant spoken of in Jer 31, HE will write the Law (HIS unchanging and written Torah, Word become flesh) on our hearts so that we will want to keep it. Once we become adults (to use the same analogy, not to be belittling) we should want to keep HIS ways because HIS law is written on our hearts.
    To those who say that because Christ “fulfilled” the Law then it is no longer in effect, that makes as much sense as:
    I come to a stop sign and make a perfect stop, therefore I never have to stop there again and neither does anyone else because I fulfilled the law perfectly with respect to that stop sign. HE is the same yesterday today and tomorrow; what HE says is how HE wants us to live goes on forever.

  47. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    #21 Hamous:

    I do have questions for you, Bonecrusher – Do you follow all the Laws of the Old Testament? Dietary laws? Shaving laws? Sacrificial laws? If not, why not?

    I do not do the sacrificial thing because THE place where HE causes HIS NAME to dwell (THE TEMPLE) does not exist at this time, HIS LAW states that we are only to Sacrifice at the place where HE causes HIS NAME to dwell. I keep all the dietary laws listed in the WRITTEN TORAH; I do not adhere to the rabbinic prohibitions against consuming milk and meat as a clear look, getting as deep in the Hebrew as I am able with my programs, puts that in the “added to” category. I do not shave my face, (handsome though it is) nor do I grow my sideburns real long (these are called ‘peyotes’) although I probably should. I keep all the Law that I am physically and legally (living in the USA) able to keep. A big one is The Sabath, which is defined as sundown Fri thru sundown Sat. There are many that think that as long as you keep one day “holy” then that is OK; I think that The Law means what it says and it is not acceptable to monkey around with what is written, regardless what some denominations may teach.

  48. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #21 Hamous:

    I do have questions for you, Bonecrusher – Do you follow all the Laws of the Old Testament? Dietary laws? Shaving laws? Sacrificial laws? If not, why not?

    I do not do the sacrificial thing because THE place where HE causes HIS NAME to dwell (THE TEMPLE) does not exist at this time, HIS LAW states that we are only to Sacrifice at the place where HE causes HIS NAME to dwell. I keep all the dietary laws listed in the WRITTEN TORAH; I do not adhere to the rabbinic prohibitions against consuming milk and meat as a clear look, getting as deep in the Hebrew as I am able with my programs, puts that in the “added to” category. I do not shave my face, (handsome though it is) nor do I grow my sideburns real long (these are called ‘peyotes’) although I probably should. I keep all the Law that I am physically and legally (living in the USA) able to keep. A big one is The Sabath, which is defined as sundown Fri thru sundown Sat. There are many that think that as long as you keep one day “holy” then that is OK; I think that The Law means what it says and it is not acceptable to monkey around with what is written, regardless what some denominations may teach.

  49. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Bonecrusher, I admire your faith and your strong desire to be holy. I’m confused, though – do you believe Jesus is the Messiah? Or are you full Judaism?

    It doesn’t matter to me either way, but if you believe Jesus is who he says he is, then you are ignoring the whole “new covenant” thing, and that’s confusing to me. If however, you do not believe that he is the Messiah, then your OT view on life makes more sense.

  50. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Bonecrusher, I admire your faith and your strong desire to be holy. I’m confused, though – do you believe Jesus is the Messiah? Or are you full Judaism?

    It doesn’t matter to me either way, but if you believe Jesus is who he says he is, then you are ignoring the whole “new covenant” thing, and that’s confusing to me. If however, you do not believe that he is the Messiah, then your OT view on life makes more sense.

  51. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    Hebrews 7:23-8:13

    23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
    .
    26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

    Hebrews 8
    The High Priest of a New Covenant
    1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
    .
    3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[b] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
    .
    7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[c]:
    .
    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
    declares the Lord.
    10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”[d]
    .
    13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

  52. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Hebrews 7:23-8:13

    23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
    .
    26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

    Hebrews 8
    The High Priest of a New Covenant
    1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
    .
    3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[b] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
    .
    7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[c]:
    .
    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
    declares the Lord.
    10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”[d]
    .
    13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

  53. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    #25 THE NAME, when HE walked the planet, was Yeshua (to use an English translitteration) not Jesus. There is no “j” in the Hebrew alephabet now or then. HE was and is the Messiah. The new covenant has several components:
    1) HE is the high priest (of the order of Melchezedich actually the correct translitteratin is Melech Tzadick or King of Righteousness) and HE serves in the Heavenly Temple full time. HE intercedes for us full time, HE does not need to sacrifice for HIS sin because HE never had any.
    2) HE will write HIS Law on our hearts and minds so that we will want to keep it.
    3) We and I am including y’all in this, are “the lost sheep of the House of Israel”, we are the “wild olive branches grafted into the root” of the cultivated olive tree Ephesian ch2. By being grafted in by virtue of Messiah’s sacrifice we become part of the commonwealth of Israel and are therefore under the same re-newed covenant. The difference is that HE writes it, HIS LAW, on our hearts instead of on tablets of stone.
    4) WE represent the “lost 10 northern tribes of Israel” they are referred to as “Israel” (as opposed to Judah) and as Ephraim.

    Do not confuse the Hebrew roots as specified in The Torah with rabbinic Judaism of today and/or of Messiah’s time as the same thing because they are not. They do share some things but they are not the same. It is extremely difficult, but try to re-study the first 5 books without any denominational influence, go to the original text (Hebrew and Aramaic) and translate directly from there. When you come across the phrase “throughout your generations, forever” what does that mean? I use Biblesoft pc5 in addition to dictionaries to gain meaning. Finally read the text in the proper order, first read and understand the Old (first) Testament then, through the lens of the Old go to the New Testament. IF you try to understand ancient Hebrew text using a modern western gentile mindset you will not likely get the correct answer.

    The Law does not redeem, it keeps us from sin as it defines what sin is. Do you want to sin or not? If you can’t define it, as AS HE DEFINES IT, then you can’t avoid it. Once you understand the concept of what sin is, by definition, and you make the decision to do it HIS way, it becomes much easier to keep what is written. That is not to say we will always do it without blemish, but that is why we have Messiah where HE is, to intercede for us when we stumble – THAT IS GRACE!

    Please do not consider keeping the written Torah as the same as keeping the legalistic rabbinic additions to the Torah – they are not the same thing.

  54. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #25 THE NAME, when HE walked the planet, was Yeshua (to use an English translitteration) not Jesus. There is no “j” in the Hebrew alephabet now or then. HE was and is the Messiah. The new covenant has several components:
    1) HE is the high priest (of the order of Melchezedich actually the correct translitteratin is Melech Tzadick or King of Righteousness) and HE serves in the Heavenly Temple full time. HE intercedes for us full time, HE does not need to sacrifice for HIS sin because HE never had any.
    2) HE will write HIS Law on our hearts and minds so that we will want to keep it.
    3) We and I am including y’all in this, are “the lost sheep of the House of Israel”, we are the “wild olive branches grafted into the root” of the cultivated olive tree Ephesian ch2. By being grafted in by virtue of Messiah’s sacrifice we become part of the commonwealth of Israel and are therefore under the same re-newed covenant. The difference is that HE writes it, HIS LAW, on our hearts instead of on tablets of stone.
    4) WE represent the “lost 10 northern tribes of Israel” they are referred to as “Israel” (as opposed to Judah) and as Ephraim.

    Do not confuse the Hebrew roots as specified in The Torah with rabbinic Judaism of today and/or of Messiah’s time as the same thing because they are not. They do share some things but they are not the same. It is extremely difficult, but try to re-study the first 5 books without any denominational influence, go to the original text (Hebrew and Aramaic) and translate directly from there. When you come across the phrase “throughout your generations, forever” what does that mean? I use Biblesoft pc5 in addition to dictionaries to gain meaning. Finally read the text in the proper order, first read and understand the Old (first) Testament then, through the lens of the Old go to the New Testament. IF you try to understand ancient Hebrew text using a modern western gentile mindset you will not likely get the correct answer.

    The Law does not redeem, it keeps us from sin as it defines what sin is. Do you want to sin or not? If you can’t define it, as AS HE DEFINES IT, then you can’t avoid it. Once you understand the concept of what sin is, by definition, and you make the decision to do it HIS way, it becomes much easier to keep what is written. That is not to say we will always do it without blemish, but that is why we have Messiah where HE is, to intercede for us when we stumble – THAT IS GRACE!

    Please do not consider keeping the written Torah as the same as keeping the legalistic rabbinic additions to the Torah – they are not the same thing.

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