Hambone v3.0

Nature vs. Nurture vs. ???

One of the most hotly debated topics of human psychology has been the relative effects of nature (our genetic makeup) and nurture (the environment in which we are raised) on human behavior. It is clear, at least to me, that each has at least some effect on our current mental and emotional state and how we deal with the events in our lives.

Some philosophers, John Locke notable among them, developed the idea of the tabula rasa, or blank slate. This school posits that we are developed by our environment alone; nature has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Others believe that our genetics drive everything; that our development is driven very predominantly if not entirely by our genetic makeup.

One other school of thought is that nature gives us a general default reaction and outlook, especially when we are young or under some form of stress. This general tendency given us by nature can be overridden to various degrees through mental conditioning, sheer willpower, or training. As children, our parents and others help us learn how to best handle life’s stresses. This nurturing is a continual process, lasting throughout our lives.

Are nature and nurture the sole determinants of our current mental state and outlook? Many psychological researchers appear to have decided that they are sufficient to explain why a given person behaves the way he does.

It seems to me that nature and nurture, both alone and in combination are insufficient. If this were the case, it would mean the drivers of our personality are completely out of our control. There must be some aspect that allows us to determine our personality, current mental state, and outlook to at least some degree, otherwise we would be simple automatons, born of our parents, then reprogrammed by them and others throughout our lives.

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66 responses to “Nature vs. Nurture vs. ???”

  1. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Sometimes “lack of nurture” is a driver of development. Let’s just say that my mother wasn’t the most nurturing soul. She claims that her mother never hugged her or tried to be close to her, so she grew up not comfortable hugging her kids. I never heard “I love you” from her until after I was an adult – and it was in response to an “I love you” from me that seemed to take her aback. It took a few years before she seemed comfortable saying those three magic words, and even today she doesn’t initiate that little exchange of affection.

    I was bound and determined that my children would not go through that. I was starving, starving to love my kids! Before they were born, I was singing to them and talking to them. My best “first” memory of my daughter is holding her in the hospital room, where her eyes were glued to the light coming through the window (her first glimpse of sunshine). I began to sing my favorite hymn to her, which she had gotten every day before she was born. She tore here eyes away from the light, looked straight at me, and gave the biggest most beautiful baby smile ever. I stopped singing because something got caught in my throat, and her eyes went back to the light.

    One thing I’ve always told my kids is that if I were to die tomorrow, they would never doubt that they were loved. They’ve been hugged and told “I love you” every day.

    And no, it wasn’t gas.

  2. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    Sometimes “lack of nurture” is a driver of development. Let’s just say that my mother wasn’t the most nurturing soul. She claims that her mother never hugged her or tried to be close to her, so she grew up not comfortable hugging her kids. I never heard “I love you” from her until after I was an adult – and it was in response to an “I love you” from me that seemed to take her aback. It took a few years before she seemed comfortable saying those three magic words, and even today she doesn’t initiate that little exchange of affection.

    I was bound and determined that my children would not go through that. I was starving, starving to love my kids! Before they were born, I was singing to them and talking to them. My best “first” memory of my daughter is holding her in the hospital room, where her eyes were glued to the light coming through the window (her first glimpse of sunshine). I began to sing my favorite hymn to her, which she had gotten every day before she was born. She tore here eyes away from the light, looked straight at me, and gave the biggest most beautiful baby smile ever. I stopped singing because something got caught in my throat, and her eyes went back to the light.

    One thing I’ve always told my kids is that if I were to die tomorrow, they would never doubt that they were loved. They’ve been hugged and told “I love you” every day.

    And no, it wasn’t gas.

  3. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    Pyro: To further your discussion, the concept of our personna being only composed of nature and nurture absolutely eliminates free will and personal choices. Scripture states that we are free willed and as such we have to make the choice to follow HIS ways or not. Free will and pure nature/nurture can not exist in the same body.

  4. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    Pyro: To further your discussion, the concept of our personna being only composed of nature and nurture absolutely eliminates free will and personal choices. Scripture states that we are free willed and as such we have to make the choice to follow HIS ways or not. Free will and pure nature/nurture can not exist in the same body.

  5. GJT Avatar
    GJT

    #2 Boney
    Dang it, you stole my thunder. 🙂 about free will and choice. One has only to look at everything from amoeba to slugs to see pure genetics at work. That is where the automatron comes from. A step up the ladder gives you choice, I.E., as eating the green berries or the ripe ones but not being able to figure out why. When you add free will you have the power to reason and base decisions on multiple pieces of information (power to reason and comprehend). By the way, many animals have the power to reason, just not as highly developed as ours.

    Genetics can be over ruled to a large extent, but not completely, it will always be lurking in the background, I.E., the desire to breed. Eating, resting and staying out of danger are necessary to stay alive, breeding is a genetic trait to to keep the species alive and has nothing to do with and individual staying alive.

    With enough training, mental conditioning can completely overcome a genetic response even to the point of eliminating the need to stay alive , I know, I was a Marine.

  6. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    #2 Boney
    Dang it, you stole my thunder. 🙂 about free will and choice. One has only to look at everything from amoeba to slugs to see pure genetics at work. That is where the automatron comes from. A step up the ladder gives you choice, I.E., as eating the green berries or the ripe ones but not being able to figure out why. When you add free will you have the power to reason and base decisions on multiple pieces of information (power to reason and comprehend). By the way, many animals have the power to reason, just not as highly developed as ours.

    Genetics can be over ruled to a large extent, but not completely, it will always be lurking in the background, I.E., the desire to breed. Eating, resting and staying out of danger are necessary to stay alive, breeding is a genetic trait to to keep the species alive and has nothing to do with and individual staying alive.

    With enough training, mental conditioning can completely overcome a genetic response even to the point of eliminating the need to stay alive , I know, I was a Marine.

  7. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    Sometimes “lack of nurture” is a driver of development.

    “Lack of nurture” is equivalent to nurture in this theory, Nurture in the sense it is used here can be roughly equated to “environment” rather than the motherly nurturing we normally think about.

    They used “nurture” in great part because it sounds and is spelled similarly to “nature”.

    ps – it was gas 😉

  8. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Sometimes “lack of nurture” is a driver of development.

    “Lack of nurture” is equivalent to nurture in this theory, Nurture in the sense it is used here can be roughly equated to “environment” rather than the motherly nurturing we normally think about.

    They used “nurture” in great part because it sounds and is spelled similarly to “nature”.

    ps – it was gas 😉

  9. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    Longitudinal studies of identical twins provide evidence of the nature/nurture relationship, and also suggest a third influence on personality. Perception of our environment, particularly as the brain is developing, shapes the way we think and also the way we will perceive future stimuli.

    Also interesting are studies of identical twins that were separated when very young. These consistently show, for example, that if one grows up in a book rich environment, and the other doesn’t, the latter will score lower on intelligence tests.

    We know a lot more about how our brains function than we used to, but we’re still just scratching the surface.

  10. bob42 Avatar
    bob42

    Longitudinal studies of identical twins provide evidence of the nature/nurture relationship, and also suggest a third influence on personality. Perception of our environment, particularly as the brain is developing, shapes the way we think and also the way we will perceive future stimuli.

    Also interesting are studies of identical twins that were separated when very young. These consistently show, for example, that if one grows up in a book rich environment, and the other doesn’t, the latter will score lower on intelligence tests.

    We know a lot more about how our brains function than we used to, but we’re still just scratching the surface.

  11. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    #4 WB

    “Lack of nurture” is equivalent to nurture in this theory,

    I knew that. I was just making a point.

  12. Tedtam Avatar
    Tedtam

    #4 WB

    “Lack of nurture” is equivalent to nurture in this theory,

    I knew that. I was just making a point.

  13. El Gordo Avatar
    El Gordo

    It seems to me that nature and nurture, both alone and in combination are insufficient.

    I think Hamous believes that extraterrestrials are the missing third parameter.

  14. The Dude Avatar
    The Dude

    It seems to me that nature and nurture, both alone and in combination are insufficient.

    I think Hamous believes that extraterrestrials are the missing third parameter.

  15. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Nature and nuture can both be overcome.

    It all comes down to this:

    At some point in your life, you stop being a victim and start being a volunteer.

    Once you wrap you head around that, neither nature nor nuture matters.

  16. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Nature and nuture can both be overcome.

    It all comes down to this:

    At some point in your life, you stop being a victim and start being a volunteer.

    Once you wrap you head around that, neither nature nor nuture matters.

  17. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    I can’t imagine what a 3rd input mght be — nature & nurture cover the bases for me.

    Since the easiest subject to examine is oneself: I was keenly aware at age 12 that my brain was starting to function in a new way. In public school — which was not so shabby way back when — I moved beyond rote learning and started making connections and got interested in independent study. I think it is in human nature for this to happen as one grows up, but based on 60+ years of being exposed to people, I don’t think everyone reaches that stage. Some seem like automatons till they die.

    My personal opinion is that it is primarily genetic differences that trigger these phases of human development. I base that on not growing up in a particularly enriched environment, but my brain clicked on anyway when I was 12.

  18. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    I can’t imagine what a 3rd input mght be — nature & nurture cover the bases for me.

    Since the easiest subject to examine is oneself: I was keenly aware at age 12 that my brain was starting to function in a new way. In public school — which was not so shabby way back when — I moved beyond rote learning and started making connections and got interested in independent study. I think it is in human nature for this to happen as one grows up, but based on 60+ years of being exposed to people, I don’t think everyone reaches that stage. Some seem like automatons till they die.

    My personal opinion is that it is primarily genetic differences that trigger these phases of human development. I base that on not growing up in a particularly enriched environment, but my brain clicked on anyway when I was 12.

  19. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    I can’t imagine what a 3rd input mght be — nature & nurture cover the bases for me.

    Think about that quote above, and you’ll come to the determination that the third input is from ones self.

  20. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    I can’t imagine what a 3rd input mght be — nature & nurture cover the bases for me.

    Think about that quote above, and you’ll come to the determination that the third input is from ones self.

  21. meglettx Avatar
    meglettx

    Having had a couple of kids, it was obvious VERY early on that genetic predisposition was strong. As parents, I think you have some level of influence but personalities are evident and consistent from a very early age. My oldest temperament remains as firm and vibrant today as it was when she was just a toddler.

  22. Lawrence Avatar
    Lawrence

    Having had a couple of kids, it was obvious VERY early on that genetic predisposition was strong. As parents, I think you have some level of influence but personalities are evident and consistent from a very early age. My oldest temperament remains as firm and vibrant today as it was when she was just a toddler.

  23. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    Sarge, I did not do anything conscious or deliberate at age 12 to cause my click-on. I think it was genetic. Once it happened I was “in charge” but I do not see anything except human development involved.

    I will however take full responsibility for my grumpy personality…

  24. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    Sarge, I did not do anything conscious or deliberate at age 12 to cause my click-on. I think it was genetic. Once it happened I was “in charge” but I do not see anything except human development involved.

    I will however take full responsibility for my grumpy personality…

  25. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    #12 Mharper42, I witnessed a similar “click-on” phenomena in both of my daughters as well as myself. I think that at around that age it is typical for the brain to start seeking more numerous and less obvious patterns, and that this is related to developing the capability for independent thought and the resultant creativity. The extent that it does so probably depends on both nature and nurture, and as some theorize, individual perception of ones environment.

    My brother is 13 months older than I am, so in addition to being genetically similar our developmental environments were similar. Among many other things, we share an aptitude for math and information technology and have had similar careers in that industry, yet we are of very different personalities in other areas. I’m very much into music and developed that aptitude, he’s not, and didn’t. He’s very conservative and religious and I’m, well, whatever you want to call me. 😉

    At any rate I think it’s an interesting topic, and one that still holds more knowledge than we currently have about it.

  26. bob42 Avatar
    bob42

    #12 Mharper42, I witnessed a similar “click-on” phenomena in both of my daughters as well as myself. I think that at around that age it is typical for the brain to start seeking more numerous and less obvious patterns, and that this is related to developing the capability for independent thought and the resultant creativity. The extent that it does so probably depends on both nature and nurture, and as some theorize, individual perception of ones environment.

    My brother is 13 months older than I am, so in addition to being genetically similar our developmental environments were similar. Among many other things, we share an aptitude for math and information technology and have had similar careers in that industry, yet we are of very different personalities in other areas. I’m very much into music and developed that aptitude, he’s not, and didn’t. He’s very conservative and religious and I’m, well, whatever you want to call me. 😉

    At any rate I think it’s an interesting topic, and one that still holds more knowledge than we currently have about it.

  27. meglettx Avatar
    meglettx

    Speaking of aptitudes, the conventional thinking for a long time was that you were born with your aptitudes. I have heard, however, that perfect pitch, although overwhelmingly innate, is an aptitude that can be developed. Scientists at GE have been studying aptitudes for decades(as they relate to employment and career) – Johnson-O’Connor is a product of that. We sent both of our children to Johnson-O’Connor the summer between their Sophomore and Junior years in high school. I highly recommend it. If your kid wants to be an architect, for example, and does not have the spatial aptitude, it most likely will be a difficult road for him/her. I believe this is a very important tool when considering careers and the resultant college choice.

  28. Lawrence Avatar
    Lawrence

    Speaking of aptitudes, the conventional thinking for a long time was that you were born with your aptitudes. I have heard, however, that perfect pitch, although overwhelmingly innate, is an aptitude that can be developed. Scientists at GE have been studying aptitudes for decades(as they relate to employment and career) – Johnson-O’Connor is a product of that. We sent both of our children to Johnson-O’Connor the summer between their Sophomore and Junior years in high school. I highly recommend it. If your kid wants to be an architect, for example, and does not have the spatial aptitude, it most likely will be a difficult road for him/her. I believe this is a very important tool when considering careers and the resultant college choice.

  29. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    What/who is/are Johnson-O’Connor?

  30. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    What/who is/are Johnson-O’Connor?

  31. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    8 Sarge,

    As much as I hate to admit it, Sarge is likely correct. Nature and Nurture do play a significant part in our development, but there is something else which cannot be quantified.

    Stephen J Levitt pointed it out in his first book Freakonomics. He used the example of two individuals. One was raised in a very caring home and given all the opporturnities a gifted child could receive. The second child (a boy again) was raised in a motherless home be a mean and abusive drunken father. The second boy was a minority while the first boy was white.

    Both boys ended up going to MIT and Harvard. The first boy who was raised in a loving and nurturing home was Ted Kazinski otherwise known as The Unibomber.

    The second boy is a Professor of Economics at Harvard.

    Statistically, I believe that getting the best of nurture and nature gives one better position on the starting line, but it does not garantee getting across the finish line.

    Simple

  32. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    8 Sarge,

    As much as I hate to admit it, Sarge is likely correct. Nature and Nurture do play a significant part in our development, but there is something else which cannot be quantified.

    Stephen J Levitt pointed it out in his first book Freakonomics. He used the example of two individuals. One was raised in a very caring home and given all the opporturnities a gifted child could receive. The second child (a boy again) was raised in a motherless home be a mean and abusive drunken father. The second boy was a minority while the first boy was white.

    Both boys ended up going to MIT and Harvard. The first boy who was raised in a loving and nurturing home was Ted Kazinski otherwise known as The Unibomber.

    The second boy is a Professor of Economics at Harvard.

    Statistically, I believe that getting the best of nurture and nature gives one better position on the starting line, but it does not garantee getting across the finish line.

    Simple

  33. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    I have heard, however, that perfect pitch, although overwhelmingly innate, is an aptitude that can be developed.

    Years ago I tried to teach a tone deaf girlfriend how to sing. Very frustrating. When I told her to sing higher she just got louder. I don’t know if even Johnson O’Conner could develop her pitch.

  34. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    I have heard, however, that perfect pitch, although overwhelmingly innate, is an aptitude that can be developed.

    Years ago I tried to teach a tone deaf girlfriend how to sing. Very frustrating. When I told her to sing higher she just got louder. I don’t know if even Johnson O’Conner could develop her pitch.

  35. gtotracker Avatar
    gtotracker

    Hamous, you can sing? Trying to match a melody to your mug is, well, rather difficult.

    I’ll never forget my two year old son when I told him he could not do something. Made him mad as heck. He put both fists on hip and said;”You get your grey truck go bye-bye!”. I left the room so he did not see me laugh. In his third year at Baylor it has gone from ‘when are you guys coming up’ to ‘not this weekend, she is in town’.

  36. gtotracker Avatar
    gtotracker

    Hamous, you can sing? Trying to match a melody to your mug is, well, rather difficult.

    I’ll never forget my two year old son when I told him he could not do something. Made him mad as heck. He put both fists on hip and said;”You get your grey truck go bye-bye!”. I left the room so he did not see me laugh. In his third year at Baylor it has gone from ‘when are you guys coming up’ to ‘not this weekend, she is in town’.

  37. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Hamous, you can sing? Trying to match a melody to your mug is, well, rather difficult.

    Yeah, I can sing alright. I never told you how I ended up in Houston? That’s a story to be told over a couple beers.

  38. Hamous Avatar
    Hamous

    Hamous, you can sing? Trying to match a melody to your mug is, well, rather difficult.

    Yeah, I can sing alright. I never told you how I ended up in Houston? That’s a story to be told over a couple beers.

  39. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    That’s a story to be told over a couple beers.

    That’s when Hamous can sing like Robert Plant.

  40. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    That’s a story to be told over a couple beers.

    That’s when Hamous can sing like Robert Plant.

  41. Dooood Avatar
    Dooood

    Free will is the gift from our Creator we each have in order to transcend nature and nurture. If there is no free will and each person consists solely of natural and/or environmental influences, then we are not really human beings after all.

  42. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    Free will is the gift from our Creator we each have in order to transcend nature and nurture. If there is no free will and each person consists solely of natural and/or environmental influences, then we are not really human beings after all.

  43. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    #21 You state that with what seems to be a high degree of confidence. What makes you so sure?

  44. bob42 Avatar
    bob42

    #21 You state that with what seems to be a high degree of confidence. What makes you so sure?

  45. Dooood Avatar
    Dooood

    Most every thing I state is accompanied by a portfolio of confidence.

    Be a circus monkey if you like, but I choose life and freedom.

  46. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    Most every thing I state is accompanied by a portfolio of confidence.

    Be a circus monkey if you like, but I choose life and freedom.

  47. Katfish Avatar
    Katfish

    What makes you so sure?

    Faith in the almighty.

  48. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    What makes you so sure?

    Faith in the almighty.

  49. Dooood Avatar
    Dooood

    fershizzle.

  50. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    fershizzle.

  51. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    My cat has free will.

  52. bob42 Avatar
    bob42

    My cat has free will.

  53. Dooood Avatar
    Dooood

    Whatever you say.

    You are entitled, as an American citizen, to freely fantasize about any single thing your mind can balance on the head of a pin.

  54. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    Whatever you say.

    You are entitled, as an American citizen, to freely fantasize about any single thing your mind can balance on the head of a pin.

  55. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
    78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
    79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in abondage one to another.
    80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

    Doctrine and Covenants 101:77-80

    Without free will given to us by God, we could not experience freedom.

  56. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
    78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
    79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in abondage one to another.
    80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

    Doctrine and Covenants 101:77-80

    Without free will given to us by God, we could not experience freedom.

  57. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #23 Texpat

    Be a circus monkey if you like

    There is nothing shameful or degrading about being evolved from some lower primates. It appears certain to me that this is how nature works. And it does not mean that humans are monkeys — circus or otherwise. Just that we and they have common early ancestors.

  58. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    #23 Texpat

    Be a circus monkey if you like

    There is nothing shameful or degrading about being evolved from some lower primates. It appears certain to me that this is how nature works. And it does not mean that humans are monkeys — circus or otherwise. Just that we and they have common early ancestors.

  59. Dooood Avatar
    Dooood

    #29 mharper42

    I am not quite sure how you made the long reach from my comment to the subject of evolutionary biology.

    I had nothing remotely related to evolution of the species on my mind when I wrote my comment.

  60. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    #29 mharper42

    I am not quite sure how you made the long reach from my comment to the subject of evolutionary biology.

    I had nothing remotely related to evolution of the species on my mind when I wrote my comment.

  61. OletimerLin Avatar
    OletimerLin

    #29 I can see how anyone might have made such a connection. I don’t think it’s a “long reach” at all. I found it rather cryptic and far from a clear expression of opinion. Ultimately, I interpreted his remark as just another smug authoritarian dichotomy.

    Only Texpat knows his intentions. If his intent was to insult, he failed. If his intent was to entertain, I hope he appreciates my chuckle over it.

  62. bob42 Avatar
    bob42

    #29 I can see how anyone might have made such a connection. I don’t think it’s a “long reach” at all. I found it rather cryptic and far from a clear expression of opinion. Ultimately, I interpreted his remark as just another smug authoritarian dichotomy.

    Only Texpat knows his intentions. If his intent was to insult, he failed. If his intent was to entertain, I hope he appreciates my chuckle over it.

  63. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    OMG, who would ever think that the 42’s would agree on anything?

    Texpat, it sure sounds like the choices you offer are “transcend nature and nurture” or “be a monkey”.

    There is no need for anyone to be offended by the honest expression of opinions.

    Maybe I should ask, what is a circus monkey and how does it differ from a regular monkey?

  64. mharper42 Avatar
    mharper42

    OMG, who would ever think that the 42’s would agree on anything?

    Texpat, it sure sounds like the choices you offer are “transcend nature and nurture” or “be a monkey”.

    There is no need for anyone to be offended by the honest expression of opinions.

    Maybe I should ask, what is a circus monkey and how does it differ from a regular monkey?

  65. Dooood Avatar
    Dooood

    Uh, no, I have no intentions to insult or, frankly, to even engage Bob42 in any discussion of the subject.

    mharper, let me put it this way, after a very long time of dealing with Bob42 on Lone Star Times, he joined that cohort of people with whom I have not even the slightest inclination to debate or persuade to my point of view.

    There are some people on this earth, perhaps more than some, whose opinions I care nothing about and sleep quite well knowing they hold them in the farthest, ethereal, if not bizzarre, reaches of human imagination.

    It’s just that I don’t care about Bob42’s “honest expressions of opinion”. I have heard quite enough of them over the years, thank you very much.

  66. Texpat Avatar
    Texpat

    Uh, no, I have no intentions to insult or, frankly, to even engage Bob42 in any discussion of the subject.

    mharper, let me put it this way, after a very long time of dealing with Bob42 on Lone Star Times, he joined that cohort of people with whom I have not even the slightest inclination to debate or persuade to my point of view.

    There are some people on this earth, perhaps more than some, whose opinions I care nothing about and sleep quite well knowing they hold them in the farthest, ethereal, if not bizzarre, reaches of human imagination.

    It’s just that I don’t care about Bob42’s “honest expressions of opinion”. I have heard quite enough of them over the years, thank you very much.

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