Is Decriminalization Really the Answer?

Driving up to Dallas gave me some time to think. Would legalizing drugs really accomplish all that our libertarian friends think, or are they just living in a dreamworld?

Let’s establish the status quo. Marijuana is currently illegal to cultivate, possess, and consume to varying degrees across the US, except in very narrowly-defined instances.

Alcoholic beverages were once illegal in the US in much the same way as marijuana is now. This is widely regarded as a complete failure, as alcohol consumption was simply driven underground. Alcoholic beverages were readily available, provided my numerous criminal gangs that sprang up during Prohibition.

Marijuana legalization proponents point to this as evidence that criminalizing marijuana cannot work because, like alcohol, it is relatively easy for fairly inexperienced people to produce. They also point to the violent drug gangs that provide marijuana distribution to those who wish to consume it.

Given the above, let’s try to conduct a thought experiment. Let’s assume that marijuana is legalized to the Federal level; possession of virtually any amount is now legal, as is consumption and cultivation. Let’s place a bit of restriction on it, though. Let’s tax it and regulate its production and distribution in a way similar to that of alcoholic beverages.

Note that legalization by a single state would open up a big can of worms and make things much worse than decriminalizing at the national level. Marijuana from such a state would already be in the country and would “enjoy” a much greater freedom of movement. This would likely make the cartels stronger, because they would only need to concern themselves with “turf” and would not need to concern themselves with the problems inherent in crossing a national boundary.

I did a bit of research not too long ago on what it would take to produce and market alcoholic beverages. To say the process is Byzantine would be like saying getting a building permit in NY City is a simple and quick process. It would also be very expensive to pay for the Federal and State licenses. These fees would have been multiples of the revenues I might have expected.

This leads me to believe that there would be some growers who would pay the taxes and fees out of necessity in order to be able to sell their product in medicinal “clinics” and in boutiques where the marijuana would be marketed and sold like wine (“I’d like some Humboldt County Chronic and some Shasta Silver Haze”). It also leads me to believe that much would remain in the black (or gray) market (Tijuana Ditch Weed). Marijuana aficionados don’t tend toward strict following of rules. This is quite in line with current alcohol production and consumption patterns; alcoholic beverages in stores are marketed like other consumer goods and have had taxes and fees paid. Bootleggers are also still very active.

The upshot of all this is that revenue assumptions are probably very overoptimistic.

Now, where would this leave our friends in the cartels? I doubt that they’d all say “Well guys, we had a good run. Let’s go home now.” They will want to find something else to pursue, just like the booze gangs did when Prohibition was ended. The Mafia ended up in drugs (natch), prostitution, gambling, civic corruption via the unions, and still other new lines of business. It’s safe to assume they won’t suddenly turn to opening hardware stores, getting into IT, manufacturing toasters or radios, or anything else so benign.

As I see it, the so-called War on Drugs is unsuccessful partly because of the difficulties inherent in eliminating production and consumption of a product that is easy to produce by many people. The remaining difficulty is due to our lackadaisical attitude toward securing our borders (lots of marijuana comes in from British Columbia). This attitude has been discussed at length by all of us here. If our borders were actually secure, we’d at least reduce the effects of the Mexican (and other foreign) cartels.

Maybe the answer is some form of decriminalization done in concert with securing the borders.

If you want to participate, you must back up your assertions with some rational, logical argument. Simply asserting that marijuana is addictive and therefore must be eradicated off the face of the Earth needs to be backed up with how you might go about doing it. Likewise, asserting that the “War on Drugs” is an expensive and ineffective boondoggle needs to be supported with some discussion about the side effects of actually ending it and how we’d deal with the second and higher order effects of such an act. Cherry-picking articles alone doesn’t cut it either.

Note that I am only considering marijuana here. I am not in any way talking about hard drugs (e.g., methamphetamine, cocaine, heroin, etc.). We’ll talk about that another time.


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82 responses to “Is Decriminalization Really the Answer?”

  1. texanadian Avatar
    texanadian

    You’re JUST pullin’ bob’s chain. 😉

  2. Super Dave Avatar
    Super Dave

    You’re JUST pullin’ bob’s chain. 😉

  3. texanadian Avatar
    texanadian

    Now, where would this leave our friends in the cartels? I doubt that they’d all say “Well guys, we had a good run. Let’s go home now.” They will want to find something else to pursue, just like the booze gangs did when Prohibition was ended. The Mafia ended up in drugs (natch), prostitution, gambling, civic corruption via the unions, and still other new lines of business.

    I’ll not try to discuss the main point as I just don’t have the time today, but to slightly switch the subject I read something a while back that I didn’t know but was NOT surprised about, it seems that porn movies where illegal in this country for many years yet there was black market for the old 8/16 mm movies. A lot of them were produced in other countries but many were made in California. The companies had to work underground so they never paid any taxes, many made “B” movies or documentaries to launder their money. When the movies became somewhat acceptable, guess who made them? The same folks, of course. I’m pretty sure that I heard this from a VATaxer, and he had researched it among other things. This person also wanted weed legalized.
    I hope I didn’t hijack the thread but I found this story interesting.

  4. Super Dave Avatar
    Super Dave

    Now, where would this leave our friends in the cartels? I doubt that they’d all say “Well guys, we had a good run. Let’s go home now.” They will want to find something else to pursue, just like the booze gangs did when Prohibition was ended. The Mafia ended up in drugs (natch), prostitution, gambling, civic corruption via the unions, and still other new lines of business.

    I’ll not try to discuss the main point as I just don’t have the time today, but to slightly switch the subject I read something a while back that I didn’t know but was NOT surprised about, it seems that porn movies where illegal in this country for many years yet there was black market for the old 8/16 mm movies. A lot of them were produced in other countries but many were made in California. The companies had to work underground so they never paid any taxes, many made “B” movies or documentaries to launder their money. When the movies became somewhat acceptable, guess who made them? The same folks, of course. I’m pretty sure that I heard this from a VATaxer, and he had researched it among other things. This person also wanted weed legalized.
    I hope I didn’t hijack the thread but I found this story interesting.

  5. fat albert Avatar
    fat albert

    I’m going to assume that when you talk about legalizing pot, you’re going to put an age restriction on it – probably either 18 or 21 depending on how the final debates go. I’m guessing that not even the most licentious of us would advocate giving psychotropic drugs to children.

    In my experience, and according to most of the people I’ve talked to, one of the most important motivations for using marijuana is that the act, in and of itself, is rebellious in nature. It’s thumbing your nose at “the man”; rejecting the rules of society; telling your parents to “kiss off”.

    If this is true, then I believe that legalizing marijuana will simply push those rebels – and the cartels who supply them – to other, less benign substances.

    Let’s face it, despite protests to the contrary, most people who smoke pot are wanting to just “mellow out” a little bit. They want to get stoned. This is especially true for younger people. You see similar use patterns for alcohol – 20 year olds who want to sit down and savor a glass of fine wine or a 20 year old single malt are few and far between.

    All that being said, decriminalization may indeed be the answer. Regardless our collective future depends on secure borders.

    Getting rid of the foreign cartels would be nice, but that will just make more room for domestic groups – possibly working in concert with offshore cartels. I’m not sure that we gain a lot there.

  6. fat albert Avatar
    fat albert

    I’m going to assume that when you talk about legalizing pot, you’re going to put an age restriction on it – probably either 18 or 21 depending on how the final debates go. I’m guessing that not even the most licentious of us would advocate giving psychotropic drugs to children.

    In my experience, and according to most of the people I’ve talked to, one of the most important motivations for using marijuana is that the act, in and of itself, is rebellious in nature. It’s thumbing your nose at “the man”; rejecting the rules of society; telling your parents to “kiss off”.

    If this is true, then I believe that legalizing marijuana will simply push those rebels – and the cartels who supply them – to other, less benign substances.

    Let’s face it, despite protests to the contrary, most people who smoke pot are wanting to just “mellow out” a little bit. They want to get stoned. This is especially true for younger people. You see similar use patterns for alcohol – 20 year olds who want to sit down and savor a glass of fine wine or a 20 year old single malt are few and far between.

    All that being said, decriminalization may indeed be the answer. Regardless our collective future depends on secure borders.

    Getting rid of the foreign cartels would be nice, but that will just make more room for domestic groups – possibly working in concert with offshore cartels. I’m not sure that we gain a lot there.

  7. El Gordo Avatar

    This leads me to believe that there would be some growers who would pay the taxes and fees out of necessity in order to be able to sell their product in medicinal “clinics” and in boutiques where the marijuana would be marketed and sold like wine (“I’d like some Humboldt County Chronic and some Shasta Silver Haze”). It also leads me to believe that much would remain in the black (or gray) market (Tijuana Ditch Weed). Marijuana aficionados don’t tend toward strict following of rules. This is quite in line with current alcohol production and consumption patterns; alcoholic beverages in stores are marketed like other consumer goods and have had taxes and fees paid. Bootleggers are also still very active.

    Great point, but I’m not convinced that the amount of marijuana that would remain in the black market is significant enough to warrant not legalizing it. As ridiculous and Byzantine as alcohol distribution laws are now, don’t the vast majority of alcoholic beverage producers comply anyway despite that? I don’t have fact and figures handy, or I’d give them. Further, I’m not sure how reliable they’d be anyway, as crime statistics can only verifiably count those who are caught.

  8. The Dude Avatar

    This leads me to believe that there would be some growers who would pay the taxes and fees out of necessity in order to be able to sell their product in medicinal “clinics” and in boutiques where the marijuana would be marketed and sold like wine (“I’d like some Humboldt County Chronic and some Shasta Silver Haze”). It also leads me to believe that much would remain in the black (or gray) market (Tijuana Ditch Weed). Marijuana aficionados don’t tend toward strict following of rules. This is quite in line with current alcohol production and consumption patterns; alcoholic beverages in stores are marketed like other consumer goods and have had taxes and fees paid. Bootleggers are also still very active.

    Great point, but I’m not convinced that the amount of marijuana that would remain in the black market is significant enough to warrant not legalizing it. As ridiculous and Byzantine as alcohol distribution laws are now, don’t the vast majority of alcoholic beverage producers comply anyway despite that? I don’t have fact and figures handy, or I’d give them. Further, I’m not sure how reliable they’d be anyway, as crime statistics can only verifiably count those who are caught.

  9. Super Dave Avatar
    Super Dave

    As a percentage of the overall illicit drug market (as measured in dollars), how much does this suppose would be legalized? In other words, how much is marijuana as a percentage of all illegal drugs? If it is a small percentage, say less that 10%, why not? In practice, I would suspect that most agencies go after the larger targets anyway which allows the MJ to come in unobstructed in smaller quantities.

    Realistically, I tend to support the “let it be legal” concept to get the government out of one more phase of our daily lives. However, the penalties for operating while impaired (such as those with alcohol), would be severe. Screwy, yes, but alcohol consumption is legal while being drunk in public is not. Putting a sin tax on it might sound good to some, including me, but free standing is not a good enough reason. The real reason would be for the politicians to cut out the middlemen (the dealers, etc.) and take direct control – which probably will not happen because political contributions and bribes are greater now than what would be available to them under a legalized system.

    Yes, once again, the politicians and the dealers would be marching arm and arm down Main Street opposing such a proposal.

  10. El Gordo Avatar

    As a percentage of the overall illicit drug market (as measured in dollars), how much does this suppose would be legalized? In other words, how much is marijuana as a percentage of all illegal drugs? If it is a small percentage, say less that 10%, why not? In practice, I would suspect that most agencies go after the larger targets anyway which allows the MJ to come in unobstructed in smaller quantities.

    Realistically, I tend to support the “let it be legal” concept to get the government out of one more phase of our daily lives. However, the penalties for operating while impaired (such as those with alcohol), would be severe. Screwy, yes, but alcohol consumption is legal while being drunk in public is not. Putting a sin tax on it might sound good to some, including me, but free standing is not a good enough reason. The real reason would be for the politicians to cut out the middlemen (the dealers, etc.) and take direct control – which probably will not happen because political contributions and bribes are greater now than what would be available to them under a legalized system.

    Yes, once again, the politicians and the dealers would be marching arm and arm down Main Street opposing such a proposal.

  11. Hamous Avatar

    I’ll go one further; I suggest that all drugs be decriminalized, period dot bingo end of statement. The crime problem is so great because drugs are illegal and that makes them much more expensive; if you take the crime portion out, you also take the money and mystique out. The money/mystique factors can not be ignored when considering the overall impact of illicit/illegal drugs in our society. If the m/m issue is dissolved by decriminalization then only the losers will do the dope as it will no longer be “cool” to engage in that behavior. If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school. This can be done real education, telling both sides of the story (doing dope makes you feel really great while you are altered but usually makes you feel much worse after the party) and by describing the short/medium/long term negative effects of doing dope on the brain, lungs, kidneys, pancrease, etc. This approach is working well with tobacco as overall usage and number of users is steadily going down; I believe that the same thing would happen with dope.

  12. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    I’ll go one further; I suggest that all drugs be decriminalized, period dot bingo end of statement. The crime problem is so great because drugs are illegal and that makes them much more expensive; if you take the crime portion out, you also take the money and mystique out. The money/mystique factors can not be ignored when considering the overall impact of illicit/illegal drugs in our society. If the m/m issue is dissolved by decriminalization then only the losers will do the dope as it will no longer be “cool” to engage in that behavior. If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school. This can be done real education, telling both sides of the story (doing dope makes you feel really great while you are altered but usually makes you feel much worse after the party) and by describing the short/medium/long term negative effects of doing dope on the brain, lungs, kidneys, pancrease, etc. This approach is working well with tobacco as overall usage and number of users is steadily going down; I believe that the same thing would happen with dope.

  13. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    Bonehead,

    Sometimes dogma (political philosophy) has to take a backseat to practicality. I am speaking as the parent of a 30ish drug addict. Her drug of choice is prescription medications which can be legally obtained in our fair state now because the REPUBLICAN controlled legislature has elected to do nothing to close down the sham pain clinics.

    Venting aside…I suspect that my daughter would migrate to other drugs if prescription drugs were not easily available.

    Some drugs are just plain dangerous and should not be readily available and I support the continued penalties for drug dealers, but I would like to see the focus on users be directed toward “forced” stays in rehab. Keep in mind that it takes 3-5 trips to rehab before it takes if at all.

    I am fine with some relaxation of the marijuana laws, but first I want to see a non-invasive test that can be administered by LEOs to they can determine if a driver is impaired by marijuana. We also need to have credible nationwide minimum standards for what constitutes impairment once a test is available.

    Lastly….Private Enterprise must still be free to require employees to be drug free even if marijuana laws are relaxed.

    Sorry for the venting

  14. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    Bonehead,

    Sometimes dogma (political philosophy) has to take a backseat to practicality. I am speaking as the parent of a 30ish drug addict. Her drug of choice is prescription medications which can be legally obtained in our fair state now because the REPUBLICAN controlled legislature has elected to do nothing to close down the sham pain clinics.

    Venting aside…I suspect that my daughter would migrate to other drugs if prescription drugs were not easily available.

    Some drugs are just plain dangerous and should not be readily available and I support the continued penalties for drug dealers, but I would like to see the focus on users be directed toward “forced” stays in rehab. Keep in mind that it takes 3-5 trips to rehab before it takes if at all.

    I am fine with some relaxation of the marijuana laws, but first I want to see a non-invasive test that can be administered by LEOs to they can determine if a driver is impaired by marijuana. We also need to have credible nationwide minimum standards for what constitutes impairment once a test is available.

    Lastly….Private Enterprise must still be free to require employees to be drug free even if marijuana laws are relaxed.

    Sorry for the venting

  15. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    ’ll go one further; I suggest that all drugs be decriminalized, period dot bingo end of statement. The crime problem is so great because drugs are illegal and that makes them much more expensive; if you take the crime portion out, you also take the money and mystique out. The money/mystique factors can not be ignored when considering the overall impact of illicit/illegal drugs in our society. If the m/m issue is dissolved by decriminalization then only the losers will do the dope as it will no longer be “cool” to engage in that behavior. If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school. This can be done real education, telling both sides of the story (doing dope makes you feel really great while you are altered but usually makes you feel much worse after the party) and by describing the short/medium/long term negative effects of doing dope on the brain, lungs, kidneys, pancrease, etc. This approach is working well with tobacco as overall usage and number of users is steadily going down; I believe that the same thing would happen with dope.

    Using this logic, one would assume that nobody in this country drinks alcoholic beverages, nobody drives drunk, and AA is a distant memory because nobody needs it anymore.

    Furthermore, it is a myth that Prohibition did not reduce alcohol consumption.l

    We estimate the consumption of alcohol during Prohibition using mortality, mental health and crime statistics. We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level. The level of consumption was virtually the same immediately after Prohibition as during the latter part of Prohibition, although consumption increased to approximately its pre-Prohibition level during the subsequent decade.

    There’s a lot of myth out there regarding Prohibition

    Those of you who favor the Arizona’s immigration law should note that several states forbade their State and Local LEOs from enforcing the Volstead act (notably NY and IL), and that there were never more than 2500 Federal Agents assigned to enforcement.

  16. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    ’ll go one further; I suggest that all drugs be decriminalized, period dot bingo end of statement. The crime problem is so great because drugs are illegal and that makes them much more expensive; if you take the crime portion out, you also take the money and mystique out. The money/mystique factors can not be ignored when considering the overall impact of illicit/illegal drugs in our society. If the m/m issue is dissolved by decriminalization then only the losers will do the dope as it will no longer be “cool” to engage in that behavior. If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school. This can be done real education, telling both sides of the story (doing dope makes you feel really great while you are altered but usually makes you feel much worse after the party) and by describing the short/medium/long term negative effects of doing dope on the brain, lungs, kidneys, pancrease, etc. This approach is working well with tobacco as overall usage and number of users is steadily going down; I believe that the same thing would happen with dope.

    Using this logic, one would assume that nobody in this country drinks alcoholic beverages, nobody drives drunk, and AA is a distant memory because nobody needs it anymore.

    Furthermore, it is a myth that Prohibition did not reduce alcohol consumption.l

    We estimate the consumption of alcohol during Prohibition using mortality, mental health and crime statistics. We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level. The level of consumption was virtually the same immediately after Prohibition as during the latter part of Prohibition, although consumption increased to approximately its pre-Prohibition level during the subsequent decade.

    There’s a lot of myth out there regarding Prohibition

    Those of you who favor the Arizona’s immigration law should note that several states forbade their State and Local LEOs from enforcing the Volstead act (notably NY and IL), and that there were never more than 2500 Federal Agents assigned to enforcement.

  17. Hamous Avatar

    Perhaps I was not clear in my position. Making the stuff illegal makes it really expensive and the crime/corruption/personal privacy invasion associated with that (I guess you would call that 2nd order stuff) is, IMO, a bigger problem than the drug use itsself. If we could/would put 30% of what we currently waste on interdiction on real treatment, (including mandatory stays for minors) for those who want it then we could attack the problem closer to its source. The fact is that if the stuff is available, it will be abused/used by a certain segment of the population; the legality of it is irrelevant. The drug laws are attacking the symptoms rather than the cause. In this case the symptom is drug use/addiction; the causes are depression, allergy (allergic responses come in many different forms and people tend to crave that to which they are allergic), other underlying psych disorders, etc. I am advocating getting at the root causes of the desire for drug use/abuse/addiction and treating those who want to get better, those who do not want to get better can’t be helped and no law or penalty or price will prevent the abuse. I think that an honest look at the situation will reveal that what we are doing now in combating the problem is not working, the war on poverty is a failure of greater magnitude and for the same reasons; attacking the symptoms instead of the root causes. I am not in favor of drug abuse, it is destructive just like alcohol, excercize or sex abuse. I want there to be dramatically less drug abuse and to make that happen we need to attack the real problem instead of the symptoms.

  18. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    Perhaps I was not clear in my position. Making the stuff illegal makes it really expensive and the crime/corruption/personal privacy invasion associated with that (I guess you would call that 2nd order stuff) is, IMO, a bigger problem than the drug use itsself. If we could/would put 30% of what we currently waste on interdiction on real treatment, (including mandatory stays for minors) for those who want it then we could attack the problem closer to its source. The fact is that if the stuff is available, it will be abused/used by a certain segment of the population; the legality of it is irrelevant. The drug laws are attacking the symptoms rather than the cause. In this case the symptom is drug use/addiction; the causes are depression, allergy (allergic responses come in many different forms and people tend to crave that to which they are allergic), other underlying psych disorders, etc. I am advocating getting at the root causes of the desire for drug use/abuse/addiction and treating those who want to get better, those who do not want to get better can’t be helped and no law or penalty or price will prevent the abuse. I think that an honest look at the situation will reveal that what we are doing now in combating the problem is not working, the war on poverty is a failure of greater magnitude and for the same reasons; attacking the symptoms instead of the root causes. I am not in favor of drug abuse, it is destructive just like alcohol, excercize or sex abuse. I want there to be dramatically less drug abuse and to make that happen we need to attack the real problem instead of the symptoms.

  19. Hamous Avatar

    #7 Simple: Sorry to hear about your daughter, I had my issues with weed and beer but have overcome them. The substance abused is not the issue; as you stated:

    Her drug of choice is prescription medications

    and

    I suspect that my daughter would migrate to other drugs if prescription drugs were not easily available.

    The issue is that she has an underlying allergy/psych/brain chemistry disorder and the drug abuse is a symptom of that issue/disorder; she is self medicating. If the underlying issues are addressed then the treatment of the addiction is much easier.
    Knee-mail on the way for your daughter.

  20. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #7 Simple: Sorry to hear about your daughter, I had my issues with weed and beer but have overcome them. The substance abused is not the issue; as you stated:

    Her drug of choice is prescription medications

    and

    I suspect that my daughter would migrate to other drugs if prescription drugs were not easily available.

    The issue is that she has an underlying allergy/psych/brain chemistry disorder and the drug abuse is a symptom of that issue/disorder; she is self medicating. If the underlying issues are addressed then the treatment of the addiction is much easier.
    Knee-mail on the way for your daughter.

  21. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    Bonehead,

    Thank you! Help with regards to my daughter is accepted from all quarters without restriction or regret.

    You are correct. She is an addict and her mind is wired that way and in my estimation will be that way until she dies. Ms Simple and I have been living with this for over 15 years and have tried just about everything.

    We are currently raising her daughter because the courts have determined that my daughter is a danger to her own child. The park benches are full of grandparents raising grandchildren for the same reason. Go to a PTA meeting and count the oldsters!

    I would like to see the sham drug clinics and the drug peddlers punished more out of a desire for some good old fashioned revenge. I believe the hard drug peddlers are killing our people as surely as any WMD.

    There is a pretty good chance that my experience has made me a little pigheaded on the issue.

    Oink

  22. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    Bonehead,

    Thank you! Help with regards to my daughter is accepted from all quarters without restriction or regret.

    You are correct. She is an addict and her mind is wired that way and in my estimation will be that way until she dies. Ms Simple and I have been living with this for over 15 years and have tried just about everything.

    We are currently raising her daughter because the courts have determined that my daughter is a danger to her own child. The park benches are full of grandparents raising grandchildren for the same reason. Go to a PTA meeting and count the oldsters!

    I would like to see the sham drug clinics and the drug peddlers punished more out of a desire for some good old fashioned revenge. I believe the hard drug peddlers are killing our people as surely as any WMD.

    There is a pretty good chance that my experience has made me a little pigheaded on the issue.

    Oink

  23. bweldon Avatar
    bweldon

    Couple of things…

    1) RE: War on Drugs. This has been mis handled from the start. The goal should be to punnish the pusher and rehab the user. We are punninshing the user and doing little to go after the pushers.

    2) Border Control. We close/secure our borders, a LARGE majority of the illegal drugs coming into the country would not get in. Then simple supply and demand comes into play, the less someone has to sell the more they can sell it for.

    Fat Albert makes a great point, you see very few young adults who are at the starting point of alcohol consumption age looking at a wine list or asking for a “designer” beer or vodka. They are the ones who Coors and others are chasing with their 30day mini kegs.

    As far as taxing and creating a revenue stream, look at the other “Sin” taxes and see how much they discourage use, even though we know that smoking is dangerous, and the taxes on a single pack of cigs is about 50% of that item. If people want to smoke they will find a way even to the detriment of their other finances.

    The other thing is right now the only time people are drug tested is usually (outside of sports) at the time of employment, or during the process of getting life insurance. If we look at marajuana being legal you open up other things where people could be asked to submit for a random test, such as drivers license, auto insurance, even institutes of higher learning, and that opens up the door for more lawsuits regarding descrimination as well as challenging the validity of the testing procedure.

    I for one think we need to stop and change our direction. We need to look to secure the country’s ports and borders. We need to go after the distribution networks, and when we put them behind bars, they are in solitary, and cannot have any contact with the outside, because we know of several instances where drug lords have continued to run their cartels from behind the walls of club fed. And finally we need to look at helping those who want help kicking the habbit, and doing everything we as a country can to encourage them to seek treatment and support.

  24. bweldon Avatar
    bweldon

    Couple of things…

    1) RE: War on Drugs. This has been mis handled from the start. The goal should be to punnish the pusher and rehab the user. We are punninshing the user and doing little to go after the pushers.

    2) Border Control. We close/secure our borders, a LARGE majority of the illegal drugs coming into the country would not get in. Then simple supply and demand comes into play, the less someone has to sell the more they can sell it for.

    Fat Albert makes a great point, you see very few young adults who are at the starting point of alcohol consumption age looking at a wine list or asking for a “designer” beer or vodka. They are the ones who Coors and others are chasing with their 30day mini kegs.

    As far as taxing and creating a revenue stream, look at the other “Sin” taxes and see how much they discourage use, even though we know that smoking is dangerous, and the taxes on a single pack of cigs is about 50% of that item. If people want to smoke they will find a way even to the detriment of their other finances.

    The other thing is right now the only time people are drug tested is usually (outside of sports) at the time of employment, or during the process of getting life insurance. If we look at marajuana being legal you open up other things where people could be asked to submit for a random test, such as drivers license, auto insurance, even institutes of higher learning, and that opens up the door for more lawsuits regarding descrimination as well as challenging the validity of the testing procedure.

    I for one think we need to stop and change our direction. We need to look to secure the country’s ports and borders. We need to go after the distribution networks, and when we put them behind bars, they are in solitary, and cannot have any contact with the outside, because we know of several instances where drug lords have continued to run their cartels from behind the walls of club fed. And finally we need to look at helping those who want help kicking the habbit, and doing everything we as a country can to encourage them to seek treatment and support.

  25. bweldon Avatar
    bweldon

    #11, Simple I know what you are talking about and see the same thing every day. I know of several grandparents that are the primary caregiver to their grand children beacuse of their parents behavior, I teach several at my TKD academy. The saddest thing about that whole situation is you have already been daddy and should be enjoying the time you have with your granddaughter, and sending here home amped up on sugar and hugs and instead you have to be the daddy all over again.

    I hope your daugter gets things straightend out so that you can be Grandfather and not father.

    Also I know what it is like to live with someone who cannot control their alcohol consumption, I have been lucky to see the trend and was able to realize that I cannot drink at all. It does make for some really fun poker nights when my buddys all have been drinking and playing cards for 3-4 hours. 🙂

  26. bweldon Avatar
    bweldon

    #11, Simple I know what you are talking about and see the same thing every day. I know of several grandparents that are the primary caregiver to their grand children beacuse of their parents behavior, I teach several at my TKD academy. The saddest thing about that whole situation is you have already been daddy and should be enjoying the time you have with your granddaughter, and sending here home amped up on sugar and hugs and instead you have to be the daddy all over again.

    I hope your daugter gets things straightend out so that you can be Grandfather and not father.

    Also I know what it is like to live with someone who cannot control their alcohol consumption, I have been lucky to see the trend and was able to realize that I cannot drink at all. It does make for some really fun poker nights when my buddys all have been drinking and playing cards for 3-4 hours. 🙂

  27. bweldon Avatar
    bweldon

    #9 BC,

    I am not in favor of drug abuse, it is destructive just like alcohol, excercize or sex abuse.

    I hope you are not talking about physical sports, and other things along those lines, as being destructive?

    Please enlighten me

  28. bweldon Avatar
    bweldon

    #9 BC,

    I am not in favor of drug abuse, it is destructive just like alcohol, excercize or sex abuse.

    I hope you are not talking about physical sports, and other things along those lines, as being destructive?

    Please enlighten me

  29. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Making the stuff illegal makes it really expensive and the crime/corruption/personal privacy invasion associated with that (I guess you would call that 2nd order stuff) is, IMO, a bigger problem than the drug use itsself. If we could/would put 30% of what we currently waste on interdiction on real treatment, (including mandatory stays for minors) for those who want it then we could attack the problem closer to its source.

    The reason why its expensive is two fold:

    1. Supply & demand

    2. Labor and bribery associated with keeping from getting arrested.

    If legalized, the cost to the manufacturer will be greatly reduced, allowing him to produce more, making the cost of the product cheaper.

    The product becomes easier to distribute and more desirable to the customer because the price has gone down, and there is no more stigma associated with it.

    I doubt the savings in enforcement would be equal to the treatment task that the increased number of users would require.

  30. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Making the stuff illegal makes it really expensive and the crime/corruption/personal privacy invasion associated with that (I guess you would call that 2nd order stuff) is, IMO, a bigger problem than the drug use itsself. If we could/would put 30% of what we currently waste on interdiction on real treatment, (including mandatory stays for minors) for those who want it then we could attack the problem closer to its source.

    The reason why its expensive is two fold:

    1. Supply & demand

    2. Labor and bribery associated with keeping from getting arrested.

    If legalized, the cost to the manufacturer will be greatly reduced, allowing him to produce more, making the cost of the product cheaper.

    The product becomes easier to distribute and more desirable to the customer because the price has gone down, and there is no more stigma associated with it.

    I doubt the savings in enforcement would be equal to the treatment task that the increased number of users would require.

  31. Hamous Avatar

    #14 Bweldon: As a pain therapist I have treated several people who had exercise addictions, they get hooked on the endorphins produced during exercise. The results when someone gets into an “overuse syndrome” can be disastrous; most of the activity must be stopped, sometimes for a year or more in order to allow the body to heal. The pain is excrutiating just living with it and the therapy necessary to undo the damage. Anything can be overdone to destruction.

  32. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #14 Bweldon: As a pain therapist I have treated several people who had exercise addictions, they get hooked on the endorphins produced during exercise. The results when someone gets into an “overuse syndrome” can be disastrous; most of the activity must be stopped, sometimes for a year or more in order to allow the body to heal. The pain is excrutiating just living with it and the therapy necessary to undo the damage. Anything can be overdone to destruction.

  33. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Let me say this:

    I think that most of the proponents of Legalization who are not stoners are Big government types looking at all the tax money this would bring in and thinking about “all the good things they could do with it”.

    Thinking about what else government could do for me with that much more money scares the bejabbers out of me.

  34. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Let me say this:

    I think that most of the proponents of Legalization who are not stoners are Big government types looking at all the tax money this would bring in and thinking about “all the good things they could do with it”.

    Thinking about what else government could do for me with that much more money scares the bejabbers out of me.

  35. Hamous Avatar

    Simple: Go here: http://www.naet.com/ to investigate the therapy. Then call 713-263-0098, Atha Houston, and get her started; the cost is around 60-70 bucks per session and they should be able to make a significant difference in about 6 months at 3-5sessions/month. You can get more details when you call. If your daughter wants to get better and is willing to be compliant to the instructions/diet she will lose the cravings/desire to abuse and will be happy again.

  36. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    Simple: Go here: http://www.naet.com/ to investigate the therapy. Then call 713-263-0098, Atha Houston, and get her started; the cost is around 60-70 bucks per session and they should be able to make a significant difference in about 6 months at 3-5sessions/month. You can get more details when you call. If your daughter wants to get better and is willing to be compliant to the instructions/diet she will lose the cravings/desire to abuse and will be happy again.

  37. Hamous Avatar

    #17 Sarge: I am neither a stoner (anymore) nor a big gov’t turd, the potential tax benefits are irrelevant. The issue is that the real problem is not being addressed and we are spending huge $ on something that does not work; it is time to try a new approach.

  38. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #17 Sarge: I am neither a stoner (anymore) nor a big gov’t turd, the potential tax benefits are irrelevant. The issue is that the real problem is not being addressed and we are spending huge $ on something that does not work; it is time to try a new approach.

  39. Hamous Avatar

    Simple: Call me 713-898-9048 and I can give you much more info on the therapy.

  40. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    Simple: Call me 713-898-9048 and I can give you much more info on the therapy.

  41. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Good article here on the subject.

    The social costs of this disaster are a subject for another time. Suffice it to say that I have my own tales of woe, and some spine-chillers from having seen the consequences of unrestrained hippiedom from my own front porch. A San Francisco-area fifth grader was recently busted at school for having brought marijuana-infused “Fruity Pebbles” in her lunch bag. She freely admitted that she knew what was in the candy, given to her by her older sister who had bought it at a marijuana dispensary. “Police are investigating whether the sister had a legitimate card to obtain the pot.” That oughta stop it.

    The war on drugs is over; they won. While parents and some social leaders are arising to fight legalization, the usual gang of idiots are busily mounting campaigns for full legalization on the grounds that taxation and regulation will mean the end of Mexican drug cartels and cottage industries like the recent discovery of rental homes throughout California dedicated to indoor cultivation. And everybody knows how the repeal of the Volstead Act spelled the end of the Mafia, after all.

  42. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Good article here on the subject.

    The social costs of this disaster are a subject for another time. Suffice it to say that I have my own tales of woe, and some spine-chillers from having seen the consequences of unrestrained hippiedom from my own front porch. A San Francisco-area fifth grader was recently busted at school for having brought marijuana-infused “Fruity Pebbles” in her lunch bag. She freely admitted that she knew what was in the candy, given to her by her older sister who had bought it at a marijuana dispensary. “Police are investigating whether the sister had a legitimate card to obtain the pot.” That oughta stop it.

    The war on drugs is over; they won. While parents and some social leaders are arising to fight legalization, the usual gang of idiots are busily mounting campaigns for full legalization on the grounds that taxation and regulation will mean the end of Mexican drug cartels and cottage industries like the recent discovery of rental homes throughout California dedicated to indoor cultivation. And everybody knows how the repeal of the Volstead Act spelled the end of the Mafia, after all.

  43. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    #17 Sarge: I am neither a stoner (anymore) nor a big gov’t turd, the potential tax benefits are irrelevant. The issue is that the real problem is not being addressed and we are spending huge $ on something that does not work; it is time to try a new approach.

    Some other things we’ve spent money on that hasn’t stopped the illegal activity:

    Pick pockets
    Embezzling
    Prostitution
    Peeping Toms

    We could make them legal and use the money we save on treatment, too.

    But there’s not a lot of people advocating for it.

    But in the case where gummint can collect scads and scads of $$$ out of it, there’s lotsa talk.

    Pretty big coinkydink, doncha think?

  44. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    #17 Sarge: I am neither a stoner (anymore) nor a big gov’t turd, the potential tax benefits are irrelevant. The issue is that the real problem is not being addressed and we are spending huge $ on something that does not work; it is time to try a new approach.

    Some other things we’ve spent money on that hasn’t stopped the illegal activity:

    Pick pockets
    Embezzling
    Prostitution
    Peeping Toms

    We could make them legal and use the money we save on treatment, too.

    But there’s not a lot of people advocating for it.

    But in the case where gummint can collect scads and scads of $$$ out of it, there’s lotsa talk.

    Pretty big coinkydink, doncha think?

  45. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    Bonecrusher,

    I am hoping to get my daughter into Cenikor on her next short period of sobriety. For her I believe it is the last chance before an almost certain death by the drugs or some drug related cause. Cenikor runs an excellent program that is 2 years long and the clients must hold down jobs and live in one of the Cenikor dormitories. My daughter needs long term structure and discipline and the only other program that can provide this is a prison.

    I would rather see us spend the tons of dollars we send Mexican and South American politicians to stamp out drug production be used for drug treatment facilities.

    I am coming around to the secure the border crowd, but do not get me wrong. I am sympathetic to the common folks who come here to work. My feelings about the drug transporters and money launderers are considerably darker.

    I thank you for the heads up on the support. We (daughter, Ms Simple, and I) have been on the rehab roller coaster three times now. We are now in the position of the life guard who must choose which drowning person to save.

  46. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    Bonecrusher,

    I am hoping to get my daughter into Cenikor on her next short period of sobriety. For her I believe it is the last chance before an almost certain death by the drugs or some drug related cause. Cenikor runs an excellent program that is 2 years long and the clients must hold down jobs and live in one of the Cenikor dormitories. My daughter needs long term structure and discipline and the only other program that can provide this is a prison.

    I would rather see us spend the tons of dollars we send Mexican and South American politicians to stamp out drug production be used for drug treatment facilities.

    I am coming around to the secure the border crowd, but do not get me wrong. I am sympathetic to the common folks who come here to work. My feelings about the drug transporters and money launderers are considerably darker.

    I thank you for the heads up on the support. We (daughter, Ms Simple, and I) have been on the rehab roller coaster three times now. We are now in the position of the life guard who must choose which drowning person to save.

  47. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    17 Sarge,

    I agree with you to some extent. Sin taxes can provide a lot of revenue, but at what cost?

    Drugs, alcohol, gambling, and prostitution are all things we could tax and allow the sinners to shoulder some of the tax burden. Heck, we could earmark all of the tax revenues to schools and tell everyone that it is “for the children”.

    You raise a good point. Making all these things legal and taxing them ignores the secondary social costs. It is true that people will “sin” no matter what we do, but making it legal and profiting from our fellow man’s shortcomings does not make us better. It does the opposite.

    There probably isn’t much difference between a stoner buzz and a couple of fingers of scotch. I know because I have done both in my youth. How long before we start making the same rationalization about meth, heroin, cocaine, or oxycodine?

    As older members of our society….we have ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard and think about what these sort of things do.

  48. Simple Simon Avatar
    Simple Simon

    17 Sarge,

    I agree with you to some extent. Sin taxes can provide a lot of revenue, but at what cost?

    Drugs, alcohol, gambling, and prostitution are all things we could tax and allow the sinners to shoulder some of the tax burden. Heck, we could earmark all of the tax revenues to schools and tell everyone that it is “for the children”.

    You raise a good point. Making all these things legal and taxing them ignores the secondary social costs. It is true that people will “sin” no matter what we do, but making it legal and profiting from our fellow man’s shortcomings does not make us better. It does the opposite.

    There probably isn’t much difference between a stoner buzz and a couple of fingers of scotch. I know because I have done both in my youth. How long before we start making the same rationalization about meth, heroin, cocaine, or oxycodine?

    As older members of our society….we have ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard and think about what these sort of things do.

  49. Liberty Avatar

    The Feds should get completely out of the marijuana enforcement business, with the exception of enforcing it at the border. Most things the Feds try to regulate or control just lead to corruption or stupidity, and it really isn’t any of their business. Leave it to the individual states to decide what works for them and what doesn’t. States should make it legal, or provide penalties equivilant to traffic fines for simple possession. If they want to tax it they can tax it per THC content. Grading the stuff and providing authorized distributors might make the tax scheme work.
    Simple, Our prayers are with you and your family.

  50. Liberty Avatar

    The Feds should get completely out of the marijuana enforcement business, with the exception of enforcing it at the border. Most things the Feds try to regulate or control just lead to corruption or stupidity, and it really isn’t any of their business. Leave it to the individual states to decide what works for them and what doesn’t. States should make it legal, or provide penalties equivilant to traffic fines for simple possession. If they want to tax it they can tax it per THC content. Grading the stuff and providing authorized distributors might make the tax scheme work.
    Simple, Our prayers are with you and your family.

  51. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    I submit that once the tax revenue starts coming in, the gummint will put just as much into pot treatment as it does towards alcoholism.

  52. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    I submit that once the tax revenue starts coming in, the gummint will put just as much into pot treatment as it does towards alcoholism.

  53. Hamous Avatar

    #22 Sarge: IN your list only one has both sides of the transaction willingly engaging in the activity; that of course being prostitution. With the drug dealers and prostitutes you have willing buyers and sellers; the others are not in the same category. I do not think nor have I advocated that any police/government activity can stop all criminal actions or even a single class of crime. The big point is that what we are currently doing in our war on drugs does not freaking work and causes lots of collateral damage in the process. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la but that does not change the obvious: THE WAR ON DRUGS IS NOT WORKING.

  54. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #22 Sarge: IN your list only one has both sides of the transaction willingly engaging in the activity; that of course being prostitution. With the drug dealers and prostitutes you have willing buyers and sellers; the others are not in the same category. I do not think nor have I advocated that any police/government activity can stop all criminal actions or even a single class of crime. The big point is that what we are currently doing in our war on drugs does not freaking work and causes lots of collateral damage in the process. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la but that does not change the obvious: THE WAR ON DRUGS IS NOT WORKING.

  55. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Simple

    Her drug of choice is prescription medications which can be legally obtained in our fair state now because the REPUBLICAN controlled legislature has elected to do nothing to close down the sham pain clinics.

    Laws are on the books. The legislature can only make laws, they can’t enforce them. They did pass a new law that went into effect in September with some stricter requirements on pill mills. Since then I’ve seen two pill mills in my general area shut down.

  56. Hamous Avatar

    Simple

    Her drug of choice is prescription medications which can be legally obtained in our fair state now because the REPUBLICAN controlled legislature has elected to do nothing to close down the sham pain clinics.

    Laws are on the books. The legislature can only make laws, they can’t enforce them. They did pass a new law that went into effect in September with some stricter requirements on pill mills. Since then I’ve seen two pill mills in my general area shut down.

  57. Super Dave Avatar
    Super Dave

    First, I do not think that there are many people who do drugs who are worried about the legal issues involved. I do not think there is a mob of people out there who would start doing drugs if they were legalized. The government has never done anything well, and government funding for treatment for drug addiction would be another waste of money. For any treatment to work, the individual must have a desire to stop whatever behavior they see as their own problem – not to make someone else happy. I know of a number of people out there who need help, but if they do not want it badly enough to be willing to make lifestyle changes, its a waste of time and effort. There are people out there who have legitimate needs for pain medication or treatment, but if they drive while impaired, downtown they go along with the other DUI’s.

    The concept of personal responsibility for our own actions, which many on this blog profess from time to time, dictates that the government get out of the way and let people live their own lives so long as they do not pose serious threats to others.

    Again, I believe (without any proof of course) that drug money plays a big role in American politics just as it does elsewhere. That’s why the nanny state politicians will never allow the dealers to get cut out of the loop.

    The Mexican general solution to the illegal importation issue would work. Merely place a million in each general’s account with a deduction of $1000 for each dealer that gets across, with the remaining balance paid each year, and there would not be any reaching our side of the river alive. And the cost would be relatively cheap. But it would just find a new route into the country so long as the demand remains.

  58. El Gordo Avatar

    First, I do not think that there are many people who do drugs who are worried about the legal issues involved. I do not think there is a mob of people out there who would start doing drugs if they were legalized. The government has never done anything well, and government funding for treatment for drug addiction would be another waste of money. For any treatment to work, the individual must have a desire to stop whatever behavior they see as their own problem – not to make someone else happy. I know of a number of people out there who need help, but if they do not want it badly enough to be willing to make lifestyle changes, its a waste of time and effort. There are people out there who have legitimate needs for pain medication or treatment, but if they drive while impaired, downtown they go along with the other DUI’s.

    The concept of personal responsibility for our own actions, which many on this blog profess from time to time, dictates that the government get out of the way and let people live their own lives so long as they do not pose serious threats to others.

    Again, I believe (without any proof of course) that drug money plays a big role in American politics just as it does elsewhere. That’s why the nanny state politicians will never allow the dealers to get cut out of the loop.

    The Mexican general solution to the illegal importation issue would work. Merely place a million in each general’s account with a deduction of $1000 for each dealer that gets across, with the remaining balance paid each year, and there would not be any reaching our side of the river alive. And the cost would be relatively cheap. But it would just find a new route into the country so long as the demand remains.

  59. Katfish Avatar

    Taxing weed will raise revenue only to the point demand will support it. Tax it too high and you’ll drive the commerce underground because it’s easy enough to produce. The only taxes collected at that point will be from medicinal and boutique weed.

    Weed is just about the only currently illegal drug I would even consider decriminalizing. As Simple said earlier, there must be a suitable field test for driving under the influence. Smoking weed in public must also be restricted at least as much as tobacco and employers must be able to proscribe its use by employees.

    Simple – thanks for your perspective on this. My prayers go out to your family.

  60. wagonburner Avatar
    wagonburner

    Taxing weed will raise revenue only to the point demand will support it. Tax it too high and you’ll drive the commerce underground because it’s easy enough to produce. The only taxes collected at that point will be from medicinal and boutique weed.

    Weed is just about the only currently illegal drug I would even consider decriminalizing. As Simple said earlier, there must be a suitable field test for driving under the influence. Smoking weed in public must also be restricted at least as much as tobacco and employers must be able to proscribe its use by employees.

    Simple – thanks for your perspective on this. My prayers go out to your family.

  61. fat albert Avatar
    fat albert

    #27 Bonecrusher:

    You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la but that does not change the obvious: THE WAR ON DRUGS IS NOT WORKING.

    I hear you and others say this (or similar). How do you know? What would our society look like if drugs were legal. I don’t think that it would look as good. I’ve wandered through Amsterdam near the red light district – it ain’t pretty.

    How many thousands of lives have been saved because drugs are illegal? My question is as valid as yours and just as crucial to the discussion.

  62. fat albert Avatar
    fat albert

    #27 Bonecrusher:

    You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la but that does not change the obvious: THE WAR ON DRUGS IS NOT WORKING.

    I hear you and others say this (or similar). How do you know? What would our society look like if drugs were legal. I don’t think that it would look as good. I’ve wandered through Amsterdam near the red light district – it ain’t pretty.

    How many thousands of lives have been saved because drugs are illegal? My question is as valid as yours and just as crucial to the discussion.

  63. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school.

    Justifying legalization of pot by saying we can educate others against it is synominous to saying that we should legalize pot so that the government can educate people against it. Some years ago the government won a huge lawsuite against tobacco companies. The tons of money (I think several billions) the government won was to be used to educate society against smoking. Well, while Florida (I think under Jeb Bush) did follow that course for about a year, legislatures and governors from the other states found, ummm, “better use” of those funds. Even in Florida the anti-smoking campaign (which I do recall having some positive effects) funds sort of disappeared and were placed elsewhere. I’m sure for the benefit of the people ( 🙄 ). In other very simple words, don’t rely on government to solve society’s problems through “educating” others. By and large, that doesn’t work.

    Neither so I agree with using the money spent on the War on Drugs for rehibilitation. Again we’re talkng about funding the state to reduce drug use. Why is it we have so much faith in government to accomplish drug reduction through some sort of benevolent interventions? As long as people choose to use drugs, they’ll use them. Any arguments that uses the high cost fighting drugs will simply shift to the high cost of treating drug use. Legalizing pot will offer no net benefit to society. It’ll only shift the problems to other venues.

    My position on pot is that overall it’s better for society to keep it illegal. I’m not of the mindset to eliminate it “from the face of the earth” but the benefits of maintaining it illegal are far better than legalizing it. Yes, one reason is that pot is addicting and while I’ll agree with El Gordo that “mobs” of people won’t rush in and try it, it’s use will still increase. It’ll be attractive in its legal state. Afterall, why are so many creative useages of pot found primarily from the state that seems more than all others to want it legalize it?

  64. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school.

    Justifying legalization of pot by saying we can educate others against it is synominous to saying that we should legalize pot so that the government can educate people against it. Some years ago the government won a huge lawsuite against tobacco companies. The tons of money (I think several billions) the government won was to be used to educate society against smoking. Well, while Florida (I think under Jeb Bush) did follow that course for about a year, legislatures and governors from the other states found, ummm, “better use” of those funds. Even in Florida the anti-smoking campaign (which I do recall having some positive effects) funds sort of disappeared and were placed elsewhere. I’m sure for the benefit of the people ( 🙄 ). In other very simple words, don’t rely on government to solve society’s problems through “educating” others. By and large, that doesn’t work.

    Neither so I agree with using the money spent on the War on Drugs for rehibilitation. Again we’re talkng about funding the state to reduce drug use. Why is it we have so much faith in government to accomplish drug reduction through some sort of benevolent interventions? As long as people choose to use drugs, they’ll use them. Any arguments that uses the high cost fighting drugs will simply shift to the high cost of treating drug use. Legalizing pot will offer no net benefit to society. It’ll only shift the problems to other venues.

    My position on pot is that overall it’s better for society to keep it illegal. I’m not of the mindset to eliminate it “from the face of the earth” but the benefits of maintaining it illegal are far better than legalizing it. Yes, one reason is that pot is addicting and while I’ll agree with El Gordo that “mobs” of people won’t rush in and try it, it’s use will still increase. It’ll be attractive in its legal state. Afterall, why are so many creative useages of pot found primarily from the state that seems more than all others to want it legalize it?

  65. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    Simple;

    Thoughts and prayers for you and yours. Keep up the good fight Simple. Stay strong and stay righteous. May God also bless your daughter. AQt the very least may she know how blessed she is for having such a stalwart father and mother. There is no end to the blessings that alone opens one up to.

  66. Darren Avatar
    Darren

    Simple;

    Thoughts and prayers for you and yours. Keep up the good fight Simple. Stay strong and stay righteous. May God also bless your daughter. AQt the very least may she know how blessed she is for having such a stalwart father and mother. There is no end to the blessings that alone opens one up to.

  67. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    The big point is that what we are currently doing in our war on drugs does not freaking work and causes lots of collateral damage in the process. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la but that does not change the obvious: THE WAR ON DRUGS IS NOT WORKING.

    Your solution to drug addiction is exactly the same as the solution to alcoholism offered 70 years ago:

    Legalize it and tax it.

    Nobody got any treatment.

    The Mafia did not disappear.

    The state and federal governments raised all sorts of tax revenue.

    That’s all we’ll get out of your solution, too.

  68. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    The big point is that what we are currently doing in our war on drugs does not freaking work and causes lots of collateral damage in the process. You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la la la but that does not change the obvious: THE WAR ON DRUGS IS NOT WORKING.

    Your solution to drug addiction is exactly the same as the solution to alcoholism offered 70 years ago:

    Legalize it and tax it.

    Nobody got any treatment.

    The Mafia did not disappear.

    The state and federal governments raised all sorts of tax revenue.

    That’s all we’ll get out of your solution, too.

  69. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Taxing weed will raise revenue only to the point demand will support it. Tax it too high and you’ll drive the commerce underground because it’s easy enough to produce. The only taxes collected at that point will be from medicinal and boutique weed.

    Taxing beer hasn’t hurt consumption one little bit.

    They’re making enough money off of it to buy the majority of commercials at Super bowl games.

    Pot is the beer of drugs.

  70. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    Taxing weed will raise revenue only to the point demand will support it. Tax it too high and you’ll drive the commerce underground because it’s easy enough to produce. The only taxes collected at that point will be from medicinal and boutique weed.

    Taxing beer hasn’t hurt consumption one little bit.

    They’re making enough money off of it to buy the majority of commercials at Super bowl games.

    Pot is the beer of drugs.

  71. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school.

    And how’s that “anti-alcohol education” working in our High Schools?

    If you’re going to solve our drug problem the same way we’re attaching our alcohol problem, expect a lot of Acapulco Gold commericials on TV.

  72. Sarge Avatar
    Sarge

    If the big goal is to decrease usage overall and decrease the number of users, which I support, then the way to attack the problem is in school.

    And how’s that “anti-alcohol education” working in our High Schools?

    If you’re going to solve our drug problem the same way we’re attaching our alcohol problem, expect a lot of Acapulco Gold commericials on TV.

  73. El Gordo Avatar

    Conrad Black weighs in on this very subject.

    Yes, I really think that decriminalization is, while maybe not the answer, certainly a better answer than what we’re currently doing.

  74. The Dude Avatar

    Conrad Black weighs in on this very subject.

    Yes, I really think that decriminalization is, while maybe not the answer, certainly a better answer than what we’re currently doing.

  75. Hamous Avatar

    #37 Dude-ski: This guy Conrad Black has the stats to back up my position and we agree; the war on drugs, as it is being waged is a complete failure. Using the prohibition example; the illegality infused the least desirable elements in society, organized crime/mafia, with mountains of cash. That cash was then invested in legitimate businesses in addition to furthering the crime aspect of their activities. The drug war is doing the exact same thing but to a much greater degree; the common Spanish phrase translated is “silver or lead, your choice”. During prohibition a “revenuer” could make $2-300/month trying to interdict the booze biz; one who was “on the take” could make that in one night. Apply the same principle to the drug war today; Narc agents make, perhaps $90K/year on the upper end and they could easily (once they moved up the food chain a chunk), make that on a weekly basis if they went crooked; how many people can resist that kind of temptation??

  76. Bonecrusher Avatar
    Bonecrusher

    #37 Dude-ski: This guy Conrad Black has the stats to back up my position and we agree; the war on drugs, as it is being waged is a complete failure. Using the prohibition example; the illegality infused the least desirable elements in society, organized crime/mafia, with mountains of cash. That cash was then invested in legitimate businesses in addition to furthering the crime aspect of their activities. The drug war is doing the exact same thing but to a much greater degree; the common Spanish phrase translated is “silver or lead, your choice”. During prohibition a “revenuer” could make $2-300/month trying to interdict the booze biz; one who was “on the take” could make that in one night. Apply the same principle to the drug war today; Narc agents make, perhaps $90K/year on the upper end and they could easily (once they moved up the food chain a chunk), make that on a weekly basis if they went crooked; how many people can resist that kind of temptation??

  77. El Gordo Avatar

    #38 Bone Man,

    This one is very telling:

    There was a an increase of 600 percent in the federal drug-control budget, from $1.5 billion to $18 billion, between 1981 and 2002, and it is almost certainly now over $25 billion, and yet cannabis as an industry is an almost perfect illustration of the unstoppable force of supply-side economics.

    It speaks to Fat Albert’s:

    How many thousands of lives have been saved because drugs are illegal? My question is as valid as yours and just as crucial to the discussion.

    Of course the question is valid, but it’s also a cost / benefit question. I would have to believe that (potential) lives saved were worth a 600% budgetary increase over a 21 year period, and I simply don’t.

    Firstly, I don’t really buy into the concept that illegality has saved any lives, especially with regard to marijuana. Secondly, I don’t think that even if it did save a few lives it’s worth a 600% budget increase.

    It brings to mind that old saw about “if it saves just one life it’s worth it”. When those words are used it’s usually an excuse to spend money when a rational examination of the facts would rule it out. Our tax money should not always go towards things that “save lives”, especially when the life saving claim is tenuous at best.

  78. The Dude Avatar

    #38 Bone Man,

    This one is very telling:

    There was a an increase of 600 percent in the federal drug-control budget, from $1.5 billion to $18 billion, between 1981 and 2002, and it is almost certainly now over $25 billion, and yet cannabis as an industry is an almost perfect illustration of the unstoppable force of supply-side economics.

    It speaks to Fat Albert’s:

    How many thousands of lives have been saved because drugs are illegal? My question is as valid as yours and just as crucial to the discussion.

    Of course the question is valid, but it’s also a cost / benefit question. I would have to believe that (potential) lives saved were worth a 600% budgetary increase over a 21 year period, and I simply don’t.

    Firstly, I don’t really buy into the concept that illegality has saved any lives, especially with regard to marijuana. Secondly, I don’t think that even if it did save a few lives it’s worth a 600% budget increase.

    It brings to mind that old saw about “if it saves just one life it’s worth it”. When those words are used it’s usually an excuse to spend money when a rational examination of the facts would rule it out. Our tax money should not always go towards things that “save lives”, especially when the life saving claim is tenuous at best.

  79. fat albert Avatar
    fat albert

    Dude:

    Firstly, I don’t really buy into the concept that illegality has saved any lives, especially with regard to marijuana.

    Fine, but now you are basing your evaluation on no data at all, just your (possibly biased??) perceptions.

    I’m not sure that you can discuss de-criminalizing marijuana in a vacuum. My suspicion (as I’ve intimated above) is that if you make pot acceptable, the rebels will simply move to another drug. I think you can already see this trend if you look.

    More to the point, I don’t think that we can (or should) mix a conversation about whether we should regulate drugs with a conversation about the efficiency of government. Do we spend too much on enforcement? Probably. Could we get more “bang for our buck”? Almost surely. Government is almost always inefficient. But saying that it costs too much and we need to do a better more efficient job is a long way from saying that it’s a job we shouldn’t be doing at all.

    Finally,

    Our tax money should not always go towards things that “save lives”

    OK, just for the record, how much can we spend to save a life before we’ve spent tooo much?

  80. fat albert Avatar
    fat albert

    Dude:

    Firstly, I don’t really buy into the concept that illegality has saved any lives, especially with regard to marijuana.

    Fine, but now you are basing your evaluation on no data at all, just your (possibly biased??) perceptions.

    I’m not sure that you can discuss de-criminalizing marijuana in a vacuum. My suspicion (as I’ve intimated above) is that if you make pot acceptable, the rebels will simply move to another drug. I think you can already see this trend if you look.

    More to the point, I don’t think that we can (or should) mix a conversation about whether we should regulate drugs with a conversation about the efficiency of government. Do we spend too much on enforcement? Probably. Could we get more “bang for our buck”? Almost surely. Government is almost always inefficient. But saying that it costs too much and we need to do a better more efficient job is a long way from saying that it’s a job we shouldn’t be doing at all.

    Finally,

    Our tax money should not always go towards things that “save lives”

    OK, just for the record, how much can we spend to save a life before we’ve spent tooo much?

  81. El Gordo Avatar

    Fine, but now you are basing your evaluation on no data at all, just your (possibly biased??) perceptions.

    Definitely biased, but based on the same amount of data you have to show that marijuana being illegal has actually saved any lives.

    OK, just for the record, how much can we spend to save a life before we’ve spent tooo much?

    Not the same for every situation obviously. We could undoubtedly save a lot of lives by lowering the maximum speed limit to 20 mph across the board. How much more money would enforcement of that cost, and would the lives saved make it worth it?

    You seem to be asking me to put a price tag on an individual human life here, which is just about impossible. We can only try to implement sensible policies that strike a good balance between public safety, budgetary reality and how much government we’re willing to tolerate in the interest of public safety.

  82. The Dude Avatar

    Fine, but now you are basing your evaluation on no data at all, just your (possibly biased??) perceptions.

    Definitely biased, but based on the same amount of data you have to show that marijuana being illegal has actually saved any lives.

    OK, just for the record, how much can we spend to save a life before we’ve spent tooo much?

    Not the same for every situation obviously. We could undoubtedly save a lot of lives by lowering the maximum speed limit to 20 mph across the board. How much more money would enforcement of that cost, and would the lives saved make it worth it?

    You seem to be asking me to put a price tag on an individual human life here, which is just about impossible. We can only try to implement sensible policies that strike a good balance between public safety, budgetary reality and how much government we’re willing to tolerate in the interest of public safety.

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